20th century impressionism

[karlhenning]

La mer "the same style as" Le sacre?  One of the very oddest remarks I've seen in many an age.

[Lethevich]

La mer "the same style as" Le sacre?  One of the very oddest remarks I've seen in many an age.

It is thought-provoking, though. Considering many peoples definition of impressionism is "colourful and not atonal" without being able to expand on it, both seem to fit the bill. Unless qualifiers like "must be pretty" are also included I had also never considered all the British composers recently mentioned by a few users as being "impressionistic", but the more I think about it, the more a) the influences seem to be there, and b) limiting "impressionism" (if it is to be used at all) to only about 5 "pure" composers may not be good, hehe. Of course, the term used in music will never make as much sense as it did with painting...

[karlhenning]

I have no trouble with considering a great deal of La mer as serene.

[Ten thumbs]

La mer "the same style as" Le sacre?  One of the very oddest remarks I've seen in many an age.

Why don't you try listening to them both for once and you will see that I am right.

[karlhenning]

Why don't you try listening to them both for once and you will see that I am right.

What an extraordinary remark.  I've listened to them both many, many times.

Why don't you try listening to them.

[karlhenning]

(I also — gasp! — have owned both scores for decades.)

(Yes, that means I've read them many times, silly!)

[some guy]

It is thought-provoking, though.

And the thought it provokes is "Whaaaaa?"

Hmmm. Not much of a thought. More of an exclamation of incredulity. OK. To say that La Mer and Rite are stylistically similar is incredulity-provoking, how's that?

[Ten thumbs]

What an extraordinary remark.  I've listened to them both many, many times.

Why don't you try listening to them.

I certainly have done. Both are fluid structures full of changeable pulsating rhythms with much use of brass and timpani. As for serene: La Mer is one of the most restless works in the whole repertoire, as it should be considering its subject. Listen again to the menacing opening to 'Dialogue du vent et de la mer'.
I don't see what is so remarkable about making a remark that was standard knowledge in the days of my musical education. Don't they study the history of musical development any more?

[karlhenning]

I certainly have done. Both are fluid structures full of changeable pulsating rhythms with much use of brass and timpani.

"With much use of brass and timpani" . . . right, in just such a way, we may consider a Mozart and a Brahms piano concerto 'stylistically the same' as there is much use of the strings and the solo piano.

Structurally, the two pieces have practically nothing in common.  (Seems silly even to state something which is obvious to anyone who listens to the two works, let alone who has studied the scores.)  La mer consists of three large-scale movements, which we may indeed call 'fluid'.  Le sacre is a series of brief scenes.  The use (let alone the size and composition) of the orchestra is entirely different between the two pieces, and in fact the timpani and brass (which you absurdly cite as a point of similarity) are signal distinctions.

As for serene: La Mer is one of the most restless works in the whole repertoire, as it should be considering its subject.

And also one of the most serene, as equally befits its subject.  We like to go the beach as much as we can when it's warm, and unless there is a storm (in which climatological event, we probably aren't at the beach), there is an apparent contradiction inherent to the sea which we unfailingly enjoy:  that it is restless (it never keeps still), yet its cycles of repetition are calming, and the regular sound of the surf washing against the sand is soothing.

At any rate, you cannot have listened to much of the repertoire after La mer (nor am I yet convinced, by any thing you have had to say about the piece, that you have even heard Le sacre), if you do not know a great many less restful pieces than La mer.

Listen again to the menacing opening to 'Dialogue du vent et de la mer'.

Certainly this is the most agitated of the three movements of La mer, we agree there, at least.  Even as scherzi go, though, I find this more coquettish than menacing.  This is not music with even the least menace, compared to (say) the Cours à l'abîme from Berlioz's La damnation de Faust, the Dies irae from the Verdi Requiem, the principal theme to the last movement of the Tchaikovsky E minor symphony, the brass retransition in the first movement of Prokofiev's Second Concerto, the crescendo of the march tune in the first movement of Shostakovich's Leningrad Symphony, the Passacaglia from his Eighth, the Allegro second movement of his Tenth, Sibelius's Night-Ride and Sunrise or Tapiola — or, for that matter, the menacing brass quintuplets against the thudding string chords in the 'B' section of the Danse sacrale from Le sacre.

In brief, if the Dialogue du vent et de la mer is your touchstone for musical "menace," you need to get out more.  Heck, Ravel's Bolèro has more menace.

I don't see what is so remarkable about making a remark that was standard knowledge in the days of my musical education.

That La mer is in "the same style as" Le sacre?  Nothing so ridiculous has ever passed for "standard knowledge."  You really are having us on!  No one has ever considered Le sacre Impressionist music.  Even those of Stravinsky's pieces which are more nearly indebted to Debussy, such as L'oiseau de feu and Petrushka, follow the action too closely and too specifically to be considered "Impressionism."  One might conceivably corral the Scherzo fantastique (a musical reflection on Maeterlinck) and Feux d'artifice (with its obvious indebtedness to Dukas) under the Impressionist umbrella.

The one number in Le sacre which most closely nods to Debussy, the Introduction to Part II, is cagily repetitious and developmental in ways stylistically distinct from Debussy's style.  Debussy's repetitions are characteristically symmetrical, and (roughly half the time, say) exact, in ways which are entirely alien to Stravinsky.  And even the gliding string chords in the intro to Part II of Le sacre are a 'pun', referring to a figure in Nuages from the Nocturnes which Debussy had borrowed from another Russian, Musorgsky.

[Ten thumbs]

I find your response totally astonishing. All you are really saying is that Le Sacre is a ballet and La Mer is not. Stravinsky was a younger composer and Le Sacre was composed some seven years later. I only mentioned the brass and timpani because some here seem to be under the delusion that Debussy only wrote for flute and harp! I can't really believe that you of all people do not know the meaning of the word style. Stravinsky went on a different neo-classical style after the war. His earlier pre-war works unquestionably belong to the same stylistic stream as Debussy's works of that era. As to so called 'impressionism', the use of that term is frankly ridiculous - expressionism possibly but that is something entirely different.
I sometimes feel that members talk of composers as though they each inhabited a different planet; that they never met, spoke to each other or listened to each other's music. This may come as a shock to some, but, in spite of a twenty year age gap, Debussy and Stravinsky were actually contemporaries. The major works which we are discussing were first heard in the same city. They do of course express different ideas but ideas are not style. Neither is form: the fact that La Mer has three sections is neither here nor there and Le Sacre was as I said written as a ballet.
As there little direct repetition in La Mer, I'm not sure where your peaceful cycles of repetition come from. I assume you are referring to a different rendition. Mine is by the Montreal Symphony Orchestra under Charles Dutoit but I have heard other versions over the years. I don't believe Debussy ever went sunbathing. He didn't die from skin cancer, that's for sure!
Incidentally I only said the opening of 'Le vent' was menacing. You seem to like to exaggerate every little point to disguise the thinness of your argument. However, to quote Debussy directly 'I have listened to the sea with the passionate respect it deserves'.
It seems time that people began to listen to La Mer with the passionate respect it deserves.
To close, here is what wikipedia has to say about Debussy's influence:
Influence on later composers
Claude Debussy is widely regarded as one of the most influential composers of the 20th century. His harmonies, considered radical in his day, were influential to almost every major composer of the 20th century, especially the music of Igor Stravinsky, Olivier Messiaen, Bela Bartok, Pierre Boulez, Henri Dutilleux, and the minimalist music of Steve Reich and Philip Glass as well as the influential Japanese composer Toru Takemitsu. He also influenced many important figures in Jazz, most notably Bill Evans, Thelonious Monk, Duke Ellington, Antonio Carlos Jobim, Jimmy Giuffre and Brad Mehldau.

[schweitzeralan]

I find your response totally astonishing. All you are really saying is that Le Sacre is a ballet and La Mer is not. Stravinsky was a younger composer and Le Sacre was composed some seven years later. I only mentioned the brass and timpani because some here seem to be under the delusion that Debussy only wrote for flute and harp! I can't really believe that you of all people do not know the meaning of the word style. Stravinsky went on a different neo-classical style after the war. His earlier pre-war works unquestionably belong to the same stylistic stream as Debussy's works of that era. As to so called 'impressionism', the use of that term is frankly ridiculous - expressionism possibly but that is something entirely different.
I sometimes feel that members talk of composers as though they each inhabited a different planet; that they never met, spoke to each other or listened to each other's music. This may come as a shock to some, but, in spite of a twenty year age gap, Debussy and Stravinsky were actually contemporaries. The major works which we are discussing were first heard in the same city. They do of course express different ideas but ideas are not style. Neither is form: the fact that La Mer has three sections is neither here nor there and Le Sacre was as I said written as a ballet.
As there little direct repetition in La Mer, I'm not sure where your peaceful cycles of repetition come from. I assume you are referring to a different rendition. Mine is by the Montreal Symphony Orchestra under Charles Dutoit but I have heard other versions over the years. I don't believe Debussy ever went sunbathing. He didn't die from skin cancer, that's for sure!
Incidentally I only said the opening of 'Le vent' was menacing. You seem to like to exaggerate every little point to disguise the thinness of your argument. However, to quote Debussy directly 'I have listened to the sea with the passionate respect it deserves'.
It seems time that people began to listen to La Mer with the passionate respect it deserves.
To close, here is what wikipedia has to say about Debussy's influence:
Influence on later composers
Claude Debussy is widely regarded as one of the most influential composers of the 20th century. His harmonies, considered radical in his day, were influential to almost every major composer of the 20th century, especially the music of Igor Stravinsky, Olivier Messiaen, Bela Bartok, Pierre Boulez, Henri Dutilleux, and the minimalist music of Steve Reich and Philip Glass as well as the influential Japanese composer Toru Takemitsu. He also influenced many important figures in Jazz, most notably Bill Evans, Thelonious Monk, Duke Ellington, Antonio Carlos Jobim, Jimmy Giuffre and Brad Mehldau.

Takemitsu is strongly impressionistic and atmospheric.  In one of his works he actually quotes sections from La Mer.  Although I'm familiar with most composers  mentioned in your posting I haven't actually heard all of them.  For example, I recognize the name of Glass but am totally unfamiliar with his symphonic works.  Perhaps somewhere I've been exposed to his movie contributions.   I don't feel like gambling by acquiring his work at this time. What is so notably impressionistic (right now I'm somewhat obsessed by certain sonorities affiliated with trends within the genre) about about his work? I may yet order a CD from the library. I believe I've read somewhere that he is a minimalist.
Glass.  Takemitsu's musical "vocabulary" is considerable modernist; post Stravinsky or Bartok.  I tend to draw the line with serial compositins.

[karlhenning]

All you are really saying is that Le Sacre is a ballet and La Mer is not.

Now, that remark is totally astonishing.

[Cato]

Now, that remark is totally astonishing.

Along with this one from TenThumbs:

Stravinsky went on a different neo-classical style after the war. His earlier pre-war works unquestionably belong to the same stylistic stream as Debussy's works of that era.

(My emphasis)

Sorry, but, no: Stravinsky's pre-war works unquestionably belong to the Rimsky-Korsakov/Liadov folkloric school: note that one of the opening motifs in Le Sacre is based on a Lithuanian folk song.

[Ten thumbs]

Sorry, but, no: Stravinsky's pre-war works unquestionably belong to the Rimsky-Korsakov/Liadov folkloric school: note that one of the opening motifs in Le Sacre is based on a Lithuanian folk song.

Who said anything about schools?
The Romantic style includes Schumann, Berlioz, Wagner, Tchaikowski, Rakhmaninoff etc. It even includes the Gilbert and Sullivan operettas. Do all these composers belong to the same school; I think not.
One problem is that there is no agreed-on name for the style between the Romantic and the neo-Classical and the Modern styles. The use of Impressionism defined to mean non-impressionistic can only confuse the student because Impressionism in art is so widely known and the musical definition, bears no relation to it whatsoever. One of the principals of Impressionism is that the artist's impressions are drawn directly from real life. Paintings are of fields, rivers, houses, ordinary people, water lilies etc but definitely not of mythological subjects or imaginary beings. La Mer, possibly, but not Le Martyre de saint Sebastien or Syrinx or Le Sacre du Printemps for that matter: L'apres-midi d'un faune cannot conceivably be the subject of an Impressionist painting.
There does seem to be a division of opinion on this issue but it seems to me that the intellectual trickery employed to divide that era into a number of ill-defined 'styles' just because they happen to sound different lacks that vital ingredient: common sense.

[Cato]

Who said anything about schools?

"Stylistic stream" ?

I will not bother playing with words: So I will aver that Stravinsky was much more in the stylistic stream of folklorism than impressionism.

[Ten thumbs]

I will not bother playing with words: So I will aver that Stravinsky was much more in the stylistic stream of folklorism than impressionism.

Whilst there may have been a folklorist movement, I don't think that the term defines the style of that era any better than other attempts. What exactly do you think impressionism means? Does anyone know?

[Cato]

Whilst there may have been a folklorist movement, I don't think that the term defines the style of that era any better than other attempts. What exactly do you think impressionism means? Does anyone know?

(My emphasis)

The subjunctive is incorrect here.   0:)

[karlhenning]

Whilst there may have been a folklorist movement, I don't think that the term defines the style of that era any better than other attempts. What exactly do you think impressionism means? Does anyone know?

You asked earlier if anyone understands what style means.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of style, if you believe that all the art produced within a certain time is embraced within a single style.

By the way, this statement makes it clear why you imagine La mer and Le sacre to be "the same style," a remark (again) which is impossible for anyone to make, who has actually heard the two pieces.

But you, you're just looking at the calendar.  All is now clear.

[schweitzeralan]

      Boulanger is a favorite of mine, and though her training certainly would place her close to the impressionists, her music tends towards the dramatic, and even sometimes bombastic. That's often true of Bax, too. If you have to categorize these composers they'd be right on the border between impressionism and late romantic/early modern.



   

Above I posted a message equating Bax with Germaine Taillefaire, one of "Les Six." Actually there is not all that much comparison between these composers.Taillefaire  studied with Ravel, and her Concertino is highly influenced by her mentor.  As far as I know, Nadia Boulanger never composed all that much after her sister's death.  Just two days ago I bought a CD recording of several works by Lili Boulanger.  Interesting.  I didn't hear enough to of these works to comment on them in any detail.  From my initial hearing, I sensed that the Psaunes tended toward a distinctly religious theme with orchestra, voice, and chorus.  The fourth track features "D'un soir triste."  That was suggestive of rich, tonal, colorfuol harmonies with a distinct dramartic fervor throughout.  I don't know if I can compare her to my monumental favorite Bax, at least not at this point.  For me Lili's ouevres are quite a find.  I'm always on the lookout for composers whose works resonate with my seemingly narrowing taste for music conceived during a specific time period.

[Ten thumbs]

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of style, if you believe that all the art produced within a certain time is embraced within a single style.

By the way, this statement makes it clear why you imagine La mer and Le sacre to be "the same style," a remark (again) which is impossible for anyone to make, who has actually heard the two pieces.

But you, you're just looking at the calendar.  All is now clear.

Certainly not, even though the Baroque, Classical and Romantic styles are often equated to eras. For one thing, in the early twentieth century , Rakhmaninoff and others still found new life in the Romantic style and the first shoots of modernity were appearing. However, the main corpus of composers did not go so far as atonality. They sought new means of expression through new scales and modal techniques in a move away from what were considered the grandiose excesses of Romanticism. When considering the stylistic development of music one ought to think in broad terms rather than be fogged by fiddly detail.
The idioms of early Stravinsky and mature Debussy are certainly different but hardly more so than Schumann and Wagner. I have known these works for over fifty years and they belong together whatever you wish to name the classification. That it is not Impressionism I am adamant. This is a nonce term invented by the lazy. Post-Romantic makes more sense although this has been hijacked singularly inappropriately for Mahler etc. I have recently been studying the works of Mel Bonis and these are labeled Post-Romantic, correctly in my view.
Think how different it would be if Debussy had lived longer and composed whole-tone serial music!
Clearly we are not going to agree on this issue.