Haydn Op. 76 vs Beethoven Op. 18??

[Haffner]

The horse race format is becoming a serious problem.  Not only do we see polls and lists for people to just pick out one recording that is "the best", but nowadays more and more people look at Classics Today and Musicweb for numerical ratings to find the almighty 10/10 and ignore the others as if they had no merit.  People stop reading critical reviews altogether, and not just in music, but also in movies.  They go to Rotten Tomatoes, imdb or amazon and simply look at the score to tell them if it's "the best".  I can't imagine how uninteresting my music listening or my movie watching would be if I constrained myself to those with large numbers.

I like that some magazines (in every area) are starting to buck the trend by eliminating numerical scores, I'd like to see that everywhere.

David has a really good point. There were times in the past that I grabbed a certain recording because of the reviews, then wondered what I was missing/felt cheated. The EMI Mahler Ressurection Symphony conducted by Klemperer made me feel like I just didn't like that symphony. I bought it because of both the reviews and the fact that it wasn't a particularly expensive recording. Once I broke down and listened to other recordings, I not only saw my folly, but came to realize that there are nuances in different recordings that can add significantly to the listener's experience.

Another example: it took me forever to finally "get" the Beethoven 9th Adagio. All I listened to for some time was the Karajan DG/1962 recording (not that that isn't a really good recording, because it often is). Then I heard the Celibidache, Barenboim, Bernstein...the mono Furtwangler 1942 recording I heard relatively recently, and the Adagio "clicked" in a resounding way. Whether it was because of the cumulative effect, or just the fact that the Furtwangler '42 is so powerful, doesn't really matter. By broadening my listening horizon, taking a chance, I ended up not only being appreciative of but holistically affirmed by that piece of music.

[Dr. Dread]

I'm not a baby. I know when to ignore the ratings.

[ChamberNut]

The horse race format is becoming a serious problem.  Not only do we see polls and lists for people to just pick out one recording that is "the best", but nowadays more and more people look at Classics Today and Musicweb for numerical ratings to find the almighty 10/10 and ignore the others as if they had no merit.  People stop reading critical reviews altogether, and not just in music, but also in movies.  They go to Rotten Tomatoes, imdb or amazon and simply look at the score to tell them if it's "the best".  I can't imagine how uninteresting my music listening or my movie watching would be if I constrained myself to those with large numbers.

I like that some magazines (in every area) are starting to buck the trend by eliminating numerical scores, I'd like to see that everywhere.

I'll admit, you make a lot of very strong points here, David. 

[karlhenning]

I'll admit, you make a lot of very strong points here, David. 

True to form for the lad.

[ChamberNut]

True to form for the lad.

eh?

[Keemun]

David, my post was not directed only to yours; if it were, I would have quoted it.  I was speaking more generally to the group of members who deride polls, lists and rankings. 

"Well that's your opinion": that has to be the weakest come back ever.  It's not making a point, it's pointing out the obvious.  No kidding not everyone shares my opinion, not everyone shares yours either.  That doesn't mean that neither one of us should be allowed to speak due to a lack of 100% consensus!

I apparently need to make my point more clearly:  I am tired of people complaining about polls, lists and rankings and I think it's rude to attack a thread on this basis.  If members want to share their opinion on such things, start a separate thread.  There's a difference between sharing one's opinion in a constructive manner and being unnecessarily disruptive.  But, that's just my opinion. 

Oh come now, I'm sure you've listened to several recordings of each dozens to hundreds of times just like all of us, and you have an opinion.

Actually, no I haven't.  I have recordings of both, but have not listened to either work in its entirety.  I don't believe in voting with an uninformed opinion, because that would unfairly skew the results.  But, if I had to decide based on my limited exposure to both, I would vote for Haydn. 

The horse race format is becoming a serious problem.  Not only do we see polls and lists for people to just pick out one recording that is "the best", but nowadays more and more people look at Classics Today and Musicweb for numerical ratings to find the almighty 10/10 and ignore the others as if they had no merit.  People stop reading critical reviews altogether, and not just in music, but also in movies.  They go to Rotten Tomatoes, imdb or amazon and simply look at the score to tell them if it's "the best".  I can't imagine how uninteresting my music listening or my movie watching would be if I constrained myself to those with large numbers.

I like that some magazines (in every area) are starting to buck the trend by eliminating numerical scores, I'd like to see that everywhere.

I agree with everything you said there, except to the extent that the first sentence applies to GMG.  Polls, lists and rankings on GMG are, IMO, entertainment.  As someone stated earlier, it's human nature to want to make comparisons.  I participate in them because they are fun.  I don't take them seriously, and I don't think the results are a meaningful way of judging music.  I sometimes use them as a starting point for discovering new music or recordings, and were it not for polls, lists and rankings, I might not have been exposed to much of the great music that I have.  Let's face it, when you do a search on Amazon.com for Beethoven's Symphony No. 9 and get over 1,000 results, it helps to have a way to start sorting through them.  Even using the "Sort by Relevance" and "Sort by Bestselling" functions on Amazon.com are rankings.  The problem you point out arises when we rely too much on polls, lists and rankings in forming opinions and selecting music.  I'm guilty of this as well.  But I don't think we need to "throw the baby out with the bath water" as the saying goes, and limit or completely eliminate such things.  They do have value in their own way. 

[Todd]

The horse race format is becoming a serious problem.

A serious problem?  I would have thought that the situation in Gaza or the current economic situation were serious problems.  You're writing seriously about utterly trivial things. 

[Haffner]

A serious problem?  I would have thought that the situation in Gaza or the current economic situation were serious problems.  You're writing seriously about utterly trivial things. 

Very cool, Todd (laughing). But I think David meant that it was a serious problem for a really good forum like this one. I may be wrong.

[Dr. Dread]

Oh, please.   

[Haffner]

Oh, please.   

Oh please what ?

[Todd]

But I think David meant that it was a serious problem for a really good forum like this one. I may be wrong.

Well, his post includes references to imdb and Rotten Tomatos and so on, as though the cultural sky is falling.  In merely cultural matters, what he describes is not a "serious" problem, or a problem at all; in the context of this forum, what he describes is not a "serious" problem, or a problem at all.  I can think of more serious problems here, starting with some erudite members who left and others who prattle on about the evils of modern music.  And I doubt those are problems.

[Dr. Dread]

Oh please what ?

Re: serious problem for this forum

[Haffner]

Re: serious problem for this forum

(laughing) You know, Dave, that might be the post of the day. "Serious problem". Riiight. I get it, thanks.

[springrite]

(laughing) You know, Dave, that might be the post of the day. "Serious problem". Riiight. I get it, thanks.

Don't laugh. It will be headline stuff on CNN, BBC as well as the National Enquirer.

[Dr. Dread]

Don't laugh. It will be headline stuff on CNN, BBC as well as the National Enquirer.

Yes, this can only lead to even MORE serious problems with this forum!!! 

[Haffner]

Yes, this can only lead to even MORE serious problems with this forum!!! 

Alack!

see:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,8585.msg264392.html#msg264392

[Bulldog]

The horse race format is becoming a serious problem.  Not only do we see polls and lists for people to just pick out one recording that is "the best", but nowadays more and more people look at Classics Today and Musicweb for numerical ratings to find the almighty 10/10 and ignore the others as if they had no merit. 

Just wanted to clarify that MusicWeb does not offer numerical ratings. Overall, I could care less about numercial ratings, because I read entire reviews. 

[DavidW]

Well, his post includes references to imdb and Rotten Tomatos and so on, as though the cultural sky is falling.  In merely cultural matters, what he describes is not a "serious" problem, or a problem at all; in the context of this forum, what he describes is not a "serious" problem, or a problem at all.  

Well it is a matter of context.  Comparing the state of musical criticism to world affairs (which you did in a previous post), certainly seems to trivialize the former, but that's trite and not terribly meaningful.

I can think of more serious problems here, starting with some erudite members who left and others who prattle on about the evils of modern music.  And I doubt those are problems.

Putting things in appropriate relative context is better, but I wasn't attempting to come up with a list of the problems I have with gmg.  I was just pointing that I didn't like this one particular issue.

[DavidW]

Just wanted to clarify that MusicWeb does not offer numerical ratings. Overall, I could care less about numercial ratings, because I read entire reviews. 

Oh my apologizies then.  I guess I should really just be pointing my finger at Classics Today.

[DavidW]

I'll admit, you make a lot of very strong points here, David. 

Yeah sometimes I make points, instead of just mouth off.  Sometimes.