What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?

[Daverz]

http://www.bornrich.org/entry/top-10-most-expensive-turntables/

That $19,000 VPI looks like a bargain!

[Bogey]

That $19,000 VPI looks like a bargain!

I believe it comes with free shipping as well.  

A couple months ago I had the privilege to attend an audio (no visual equipment, just audio) show here in Denver.  161 rooms of audio equipment.  Some neat stuff.  As I entered one room they saw I had purchased some vinyl from a dealer at the show.  They asked if it would be ok to play it on the turntable they had set up.  I told them I had no idea what the true condition of the vinyl was and they probably should just use their stuff.  However, they insisted, so I handed them a record.  In short, it sounded great.  Cost of the turntable: $90,000.  As I posted some time back, I had the opportunity at the same show to here a $250,000 system.  Now, this is all pie in the sky equipment for me, but I have to agree with my dad.  That is, in most cases, you get what you pay for.  More often than not, the higher end stuff just sounds better.  I am sure there is some equipment not worth its price, but when they played Sinatra on that 1/4 mill system, I was looking for my autograph book for him to sign.

Question: I noticed that many of the high end cd players had the cd so it was exposed and that it had some type of hub that you had to screw down over the top of it before playing.  Anyone else ever see one of these, or own one?

[Bogey]

Here is one for $23,000.


Here is the one I believe I saw.  I was mistaken.  It seems it has a lid, but you can see the hub that goes over the cd.  Anyone know its purpose?



Here is their price list:
http://www.mbl-usa.com/Browse.aspx/402/mbl-Systems

[The new erato]

  Anyone know its purpose?

To stabilize the disc, reduce vibrations and corresponding mistracking and henceforth the onset of error correction and signal interpolation.

[Bogey]

To stabilize the disc, reduce vibrations and corresponding mistracking and henceforth the onset of error correction and signal interpolation.

So, this has more to do with preventing reading errors than actually making it "sound" better.

[The new erato]

So, this has more to do with preventing reading errors than actually making it "sound" better.

Depends upon what you think about how error correction (and worse, signal interpolation) with the corresponding jitter, influences the resulting sound, a discussion there is no need to pursue further here.

[Bogey]

Depends upon what you think about how error correction (and worse, signal interpolation) with the corresponding jitter, influences the resulting sound, a discussion there is no need to pursue further here.

Thanks, though I disagree with your last point as I am in the market for a cd player (and the thread does have in the title "plan on getting") and was unaware of minor jitters that may influence sound.  However, you seem to have the knowledge about this component to answer one last question, if you will, about this aspect.  Are there any specs one could look at to determine if a cd player is at a decent level for stabilizing the cd?

[DavidW]

Thanks, though I disagree with your last point as I am in the market for a cd player (and the thread does have in the title "plan on getting") and was unaware of minor jitters that may influence sound.  However, you seem to have the knowledge about this component to answer one last question, if you will, about this aspect.  Are there any specs one could look at to determine if a cd player is at a decent level for stabilizing the cd?

Bill disregard audiophools blatherings about jitter, it's not audible.  Based on logical reasoning it's not audible.  Based on double blind tests it's not audible.  If anyone tells you that they can here jitter they are either deluded or lying to you.  Do not waste lots of money hoping to get rid of something that you can't hear anyway. 

Now after I post this there might be a few, there might even be many posters that will say things like "no fool! if you had the equipment that I had, you would know!" and they might even post long pseudoscience articles to make their point.  Don't read those articles, they will just waste your time, and will merely be posted to give a false air of authority to their claims.  Ignore anyone that tells they can hear jitter, they are fools.

And if you start buying expensive dacs and other equipment where does it end?  Soon enough you'll be buying snake oil cables, convinced that you can hear a difference when anyone with common sense knows that all cables sound the same for home purpose runs (< 10 m).  Just walk away, SAVE YOURSELF!

[Bogey]

Bill disregard audiophools blatherings about jitter, it's not audible.  Based on logical reasoning it's not audible.  Based on double blind tests it's not audible.  If anyone tells you that they can here jitter they are either deluded or lying to you.  Do not waste lots of money hoping to get rid of something that you can't hear anyway. 

Now after I post this there might be a few, there might even be many posters that will say things like "no fool! if you had the equipment that I had, you would know!" and they might even post long pseudoscience articles to make their point.  Don't read those articles, they will just waste your time, and will merely be posted to give a false air of authority to their claims.  Ignore anyone that tells they can hear jitter, they are fools.

And if you start buying expensive dacs and other equipment where does it end?  Soon enough you'll be buying snake oil cables, convinced that you can hear a difference when anyone with common sense knows that all cables sound the same for home purpose runs (< 10 m).  Just walk away, SAVE YOURSELF!

[drogulus]

Bill disregard audiophools blatherings about jitter, it's not audible.  Based on logical reasoning it's not audible.  Based on double blind tests it's not audible.  If anyone tells you that they can here jitter they are either deluded or lying to you.  Do not waste lots of money hoping to get rid of something that you can't hear anyway. 

Now after I post this there might be a few, there might even be many posters that will say things like "no fool! if you had the equipment that I had, you would know!" and they might even post long pseudoscience articles to make their point.  Don't read those articles, they will just waste your time, and will merely be posted to give a false air of authority to their claims.  Ignore anyone that tells they can hear jitter, they are fools.

And if you start buying expensive dacs and other equipment where does it end?  Soon enough you'll be buying snake oil cables, convinced that you can hear a difference when anyone with common sense knows that all cables sound the same for home purpose runs (< 10 m).  Just walk away, SAVE YOURSELF!

     Would you like to hear some jitter? The only way you can hear it is by deliberately boosting it to levels far higher than your player will produce, even if it's not a very good player specwise.

     Here's the jitter track from the Stereophile Test CD 2 Turn your speakers down before you run the test. It's unpleasant and could damage your speakers.

     Jitter demonstration track with spoken warning (L+R) (DDD) 0:48
11kHz at -10dBFS (00:12), 11kHz affected by 10ns p-p jitter of 4kHz tone (00:22), 11kHz pure (00:37)
     

     [mp3=200,20,0,center]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/11/2/1559968/Jitter.mp3[/mp3]

     

[DavidW]

     Would you like to hear some jitter? The only way you can hear it is by deliberately boosting it to levels far higher than your player will produce, even if it's not a very good player specwise.

     Here's the jitter track from the Stereophile Test CD 2 Turn your speakers down before you run the test. It's unpleasant and could damage your speakers.

     Jitter demonstration track with spoken warning (L+R) (DDD) 0:48
11kHz at -10dBFS (00:12), 11kHz affected by 10ns p-p jitter of 4kHz tone (00:22), 11kHz pure (00:37)
     

     [mp3=200,20,0,center]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/11/2/1559968/Jitter.mp3[/mp3]

     

Awesome Ernie!  Even when artificially boosted and put in a simple tone where you shouldn't miss it, it's still subtle!!

[Bogey]

     Would you like to hear some jitter? The only way you can hear it is by deliberately boosting it to levels far higher than your player will produce, even if it's not a very good player specwise.

     Here's the jitter track from the Stereophile Test CD 2 Turn your speakers down before you run the test. It's unpleasant and could damage your speakers.

     Jitter demonstration track with spoken warning (L+R) (DDD) 0:48
11kHz at -10dBFS (00:12), 11kHz affected by 10ns p-p jitter of 4kHz tone (00:22), 11kHz pure (00:37)
     

     [mp3=200,20,0,center]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/11/2/1559968/Jitter.mp3[/mp3]

     

Wow.  Thanks for that.  Sounded like some sonic weapon from Star Trek.  So, in short, this is not a spec that I need to even worry about.

[DavidW]

Wow.  Thanks for that.  Sounded like some sonic weapon from Star Trek.  So, in short, this is not a spec that I need to even worry about.

Well the tone was the sonic weapon, the jitter was the hiccup.   Well I guess you would need to worry about it if you want to build sonic weapons. tehehe

[Herman]

Bill disregard audiophools blatherings about jitter, it's not audible.  Based on logical reasoning it's not audible.  Based on double blind tests it's not audible.  If anyone tells you that they can here jitter they are either deluded or lying to you.  Do not waste lots of money hoping to get rid of something that you can't hear anyway. 

David, really wonderful automobiles can run twice, or three times as fast as you ever want to drive. Really good food has all kind of mini-componenets you don't really taste until you're told it's there. There's stuff going on in a Mahler symfony you don't really notice till someone who's read the score points it out t you. The list is endless.

[Shrunk]

That $19,000 VPI looks like a bargain!

What shocked me at first with that link was that they referred to it as the TEAC VPI HR-X1, because I've always known VPI as a small, family-run company.  As far as I can tell, to my relief, TEAC is only taking care of distribution in Asia.  $19,000 is the import price for Japan.  In North America, you can get it for a (somewhat) more reasonable $12,000.  Great company with outstanding customer service.  I own one of their budget models that I bought used.  I've contacted them with questions about it and have always received prompt, helpful responses, even though they've never made a cent off me. 

http://www.vpiindustries.com/index.htm

[drogulus]

David, really wonderful automobiles can run twice, or three times as fast as you ever want to drive. Really good food has all kind of mini-componenets you don't really taste until you're told it's there. There's stuff going on in a Mahler symfony you don't really notice till someone who's read the score points it out t you. The list is endless.

   Based on this reasoning you could never build a grass hut. What about all the unknown ingredients that may or may not contribute in some unknowable way to holding it up?

   It's pretty much standard procedure to assume that the unknown factors, whatever they are, don't matter. And if every test you do shows this to be the case (meaning you can see that the component performs as theory and past practice says it should) then there's nothing for an unknown factor to do. Equipment designed according to conventional engineering principles performs in exactly the same way as the audiophile stuff. The exceptions consist mostly of oddball stuff like tube amps that actually perform worse.*

    _{*I do admire the coolness factor of the tube gear. Coolness plays a large part in the audiophile belief system. So does impracticality, as a sign of commitment.}

[Herman]

   Based on this reasoning you could never build a grass hut. What about all the unknown ingredients that may or may not contribute in some unknowable way to holding it up?

   It's pretty much standard procedure to assume that the unknown factors, whatever they are, don't matter. And if every test you do shows this to be the case (meaning you can see that the component performs as theory and past practice says it should) then there's nothing for an unknown factor to do. Equipment designed according to conventional engineering principles performs in exactly the same way as the audiophile stuff. The exceptions consist mostly of oddball stuff like tube amps that actually perform worse.*

    _{*I do admire the coolness factor of the tube gear. Coolness plays a large part in the audiophile belief system. So does impracticality, as a sign of commitment.}

I wasn't talking about unknown factors. In good equipment every detail has a specific function and it all adds up.

Good speaker wire works (and I'm not talking about silly hugely expensive stuff) better than nasty cheap Radio Shack wires, and it works better if you don't tie it up in knots with power cables under the shelves.

[DavidW]

Good speaker wire works (and I'm not talking about silly hugely expensive stuff) better than nasty cheap Radio Shack wires, and it works better if you don't tie it up in knots with power cables under the shelves.

Actually research has shown that there is no audible difference between cheap and expensive cables for the typical short runs done for home hifis.  I've actually seen it in an article from a reputable magazine.  Those "nasty cheap" 16 gauge copper wire is pretty much the industry standard anyway.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Actually research has shown that there is no audible difference between cheap and expensive cables for the typical short runs done for home hifis.  I've actually seen it in an article from a reputable magazine.  Those "nasty cheap" 16 gauge copper wire is pretty much the industry standard anyway.

But for some reason there IS a difference in sound between certain cables. My setup is living testament to that.

However, I'm NOT a person that is happy with this!!

Luckily I've had the privilege of home audition between cable brands (interconnects and speaker cables) and I will swear on a stack of Bibles that there is a difference in performance. Yes, I said performance.

The auditions allowed me the luxury of simple A B C testing without committing to buying anything. First I auditioned three brands of speaker cables: one expensive, one mid-priced, and one low end (bargain-bin, actually). To my surprise - and relief!! - the low end cable sounded the best in my system. The others each had issues with coloration, masking sound, etc. Why would that be? I don't have a clue but it was readily audible. Needless to say the low end speaker cable now resides in my system.

Next came interconnects. Again, one expensive, one mid-priced, and one low end. But this time the audible differences led me to the expensive brand (though I bought it second-hand). The mid-priced and low end cables sounded dull. And again it was readily audible. Easily discernible.

So, what does this prove? That something is amiss somewhere because cable SHOULD just be cable. I am NOT one that subscribes to the pleasure theory of home stereo. Mine is for listening, not for showing off to my friends. In fact, I take great pride in the fact my speaker cable is bargain-bin stuff. That'll show those high-end brands!

[drogulus]

But for some reason there IS a difference in sound between certain cables. My setup is living testament to that.

     I agree that for some reason your system can sound different when you substitute one cable for another. I've experienced similar effects. This is an example of an unknown factor that disappears when you do a blind test.

I wasn't talking about unknown factors. In good equipment every detail has a specific function and it all adds up.

Good speaker wire works (and I'm not talking about silly hugely expensive stuff) better than nasty cheap Radio Shack wires, and it works better if you don't tie it up in knots with power cables under the shelves.

    Works better how? How are you differentiating between your reactions to what you hear and what is really going on? How do you avoid the placebo effect? Qualitative judgments are colored by expectations. When blind testing is done to remove this known factor no difference remains. If the cables meet the spec they function the same even if one is cheap and the other is expensive.