Movie Soundtracks: Classical?

[tjguitar]

These movie soundtrack threads usually are short-lived here, but what the heck.

Just curious where you file these?  That is, do you consider some movie scores to be classical, or do they belong in their own category?  I have noticed that soundtracks are sometimes posted on the classical listening thread, but others put them on the non-classical?  If they are non-classical, then why are the following samples available at Arkive Music, which claims to be one's source for classical music?



I do not have a strong opinion one way or the other, but just curious about your thoughts.

Yeah. Ballets are classical.....why shouldn't movies be?  As long as they use orchestras. I have a hard time classifying electronic movie scores as classical, but then again Varese and Cage didn't use any orchestras. I just describe it all as 'orchestral' music.   

Anyway, it depends how you use the term classical, do you mean classical which covered everything from the middle ages to postmodern, or do you just mean the Classical period.

[Grazioso]

pfff touchy touchy...what i did say earlier does apply to most film music, its done in brief, its meaning doesnt run as deep, its mainly all that these composers do, can you point me to Jerry Goldsmith's more personal chamber works? something that runs a little more deeply and means more than merely provide aural backdrop to a scene...film composers can spend a lot of time on something only to have a director come in and sqwelch it all completely; so yes the scope of their artistry is severly restricted within narrower confines, they arent that FREE ....just curious though what is in your estimation the greatest film music, stuff thats so great that its up there with the best of the 20th century classical compositions?

Recall that many important "classical" composers have composed for film, sometimes extensively: Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Korngold, Copland, Arnold, Bax, Walton, Glass, and so on. And many noted "film composers" have composed for the concert hall.

You seem to imply that total artistic freedom is always available or desirable in the classical world. Do not classical composers at times write to please audiences or earn a buck? Do they not write to flatter patrons? Do they not avoid certain harmonies or intervals or themes because of cultural, religious, or political restrictions? Do they not try to appease state authorities? Do they not often adhere to established forms and the Western system of tonality? Musical, cultural, and financial factors have surely influenced composers across the centuries.

Further, if you think film music is just a bunch of little cues shoehorned into scenes at a director's command, that the music serves merely a "backdrop" to the visuals, and that composers are totally subservient to a director's dictates and never act as artistic collaborators, you really need to watch and study a lot more film. Yes, there are weak scores that do as you describe, but there are many that work at a level far beyond that.

As for film music's "meaning" not running as deep, what does that mean?  If it moves the audience deeply, then it's deep. If it effectively contributes to or shapes the overall artistic experience of a film, then it surely has meaning. Brevity or simplicity by no means preclude depth.

[The Mad Hatter]

I'm sure some of it will be considered classical in the future (ie. 'lasting'), but I don't put it in the same category as Mahler simply because it's orchestral.

That said, I don't divide my CD collection by category.

[DavidW]

In case of Star Wars movies Lucas and Williams went through the early cuts of the movies and discussed about what kind of music should be composed to each scene. Lucas told Williams what kind of emotions and feelings he wanted from the music. After that, Williams' hands were free.

I have a feeling that this is pretty typical-- a director hands a composer the script with durations for scenes etc and tells him what he wants for each one.  Then the composer can go to town.  I bet the case of the conductor micromanaging the conductor is in the minority.

The stinker in me can't help but say that Williams did a better job with emotive expression than the actors did!!   BTW As of a couple of days ago Star Wars is 30 years old now.

[Bogey]

The stinker in me can't help but say that Williams did a better job with emotive expression than the actors did!!   BTW As of a couple of days ago Star Wars is 30 years old now.

Bingo! David.

[Israfel the Black]

I'm sure some of it will be considered classical in the future (ie. 'lasting'), but I don't put it in the same category as Mahler simply because it's orchestral.

That said, I don't divide my CD collection by category.

Do you put Vivaldi and Monteverdi in the same category as Mahler? It's a different era.

[Israfel the Black]

well, i disagree with a lot of what was said...most of it is highly derivative etc., never truly profoundly moving i find and i dont take it all that seriously, despite all this disagreement though & moving on... it can be fun, here are a few I like ...


williams - close encounters of the 3rd kind
herrmann - psycho
carpenter - halloween

Well, it is always safe and convenient to disagree with others without actual composing any sort of literate rebuttal. It is the layman's ally to randomly reduce unspecified clauses as "highly derivative", rather than actually saying what you mean, and pointing out what exactly here is derivative and from where it is being derived. Then again, such would actually require one to put together a cogent argument and refute the previously said statements. For example, I could simply shrug off one's paragraph as reductive and vague. But instead, I will question this notion that film music is limited to an event that can only be fun. I would not exactly call Herrmann's score for Psycho fun, by any means (unless of course your just picking out personal highlights and excluding the substance of the score). Such a value statement says more about the individual rather than the music being judged itself. Also, one's selections are questionable and perhaps indicative of film taste. The true question here is, can you appreciate film itself as an artistic medium? Do you look for film as a possible venue for deep emotion and a exploration of philosophical insights on the human condition? Or is film simply cheap thrills, fun, and temporal escapism? If this is your general assessment of film, you are very unlikely to find anything other than such content in film music either. You are also less likely to view the more challenging films which work on a sheer emotional level, and utilize scores respective of such aims. Therefore, essentially what I am calling into question is not your general view of film music, but rather, your credibility to even speak on the genre as a whole.

[Don]

I don't think about whether a movie soundtrack is classical or not.  To me, music composed for a film either enhances the film's enjoyment, is neutral or damages it.

[Israfel the Black]

yeah but ive already gone over why i dont dig film music....i thought i was pretty much to the point and clear, and ive heard many of the examples you listed and i simply disagree, in otherwords it doesnt change how i feel about it....you dont have to agree with what i said that is fine.

I am not questioning your like or dislike of film music. I am questioning your credibility to judge the genre as a whole. I really doubt you have genuinely listened to any of the examples I listed besides maybe The Godfather. I was also pointing out the absurdity of generalizing another person's post as derivative without actually explicating the specific instances. If you disagree with an argument, that is one thing, but if you are going to indicate flaws or faults in another's argument, you should not be so dense to do so without any sort of supporting logic. I can see you are one of those who states an opinion, then quickly abandons any supporting defense once a counter argument has been established. Perhaps it is my own naivety to expect an actual music discussion on a classical music forum.

[mahlertitan]

Perhaps it is my own naivety to expect an actual music discussion on a classical music forum.

yes it is.

[Bunny]

I don't think about whether a movie soundtrack is classical or not.  To me, music composed for a film either enhances the film's enjoyment, is neutral or damages it.

That goes for any music used for a movie soundtrack.  There is no more chilling moment in film for me than when Hannibal Lecter, with blood on his mouth, listens raptly and even "conducts" the Goldberg Variations while surrounded by the great art of the Philadelphia Museum.  what makes it even more chilling is that when he starts, the Aria is playing.  As the scene ends Lecter is listening to the Aria da Capo.  The juxtaposition of something so sublime with something so monstrous makes that scene one of the most effective, and rescues it from being purely a crime and slime.  It could never have had the same impact if Ozzie Osborne, for instance, was on. 

You won't find it on the soundtrack album, though as it wasn't composed for the movie 

[Sergeant Rock]

BTW As of a couple of days ago Star Wars is 30 years old now.

Damn...which would make me how old? I don't want to think about it. You're right, David...it was released in 1977. I saw for the first time during its first theatrical run in a theater in Indianoplis (I was going to school at Fort Ben Harrison). I still recall being blown away by that opening scene, the scrolling and then the two ships....wow...

Sarge

[DavidW]

Damn...which would make me how old? I don't want to think about it. You're right, David...it was released in 1977. I saw for the first time during its first theatrical run in a theater in Indianoplis (I was going to school at Fort Ben Harrison). I still recall being blown away by that opening scene, the scrolling and then the two ships....wow...

Sarge

I'm too young for an opening day experience (wasn't even alive then) but I did get a chance at a theater experience... when it was rereleased.  The only sad thing about it was all of the special changes he did to his movie.  Instead of just touching it up, Lucas added a bunch of stuff that was kind of lame.  I ended up seeing the first movie twice, and then the second one, and I skipped Return of the Jedi.

[Israfel the Black]

hahaha no need to get pedantic over this....i have heard the examples you listed my friend, and of course, i have seen many many films...sure, within the realm of film music a tiny minority of stuff is good, but beyond that realm? nah...it doesnt even begin to come close to the most profound music i have heard. A blast of joy ... adrenalin ... nostalgia - YES FOR SURE ... but spiritual sustenance ... ? solace? ... the breadth & depth of truly great art music? ... even some meat for existential & philosophical rumination? lol .... Hmmm not sure about all that.

How is soliciting a discussion pedantic? Which compositions have you heard? There is probably more "meat for existential philosophical rumination" in film music than you will find in any music written in the 18th or 19th century. Existentialism is a 20th Century philosophy, and postmodernism entails music such as serialism, minimalism, and avant-garde music which reflects an individual person's struggle with the possibility of a meaningless universe. All of this music you can find most prominent in film. You have the foundations laid by the 20th Century angst of Mahler and Shostakovich, and from there its the mid-late 20th Century modernism to where film music becomes increasingly the dominant orchestral medium. The films of Alfred Hitchcock, Darren Aronofsky, Fredrico Fellini, Francis Ford Coppola, Martin Scorsese, and Ingmar Bergman are directly associated with existential philosophical inquiries. The music used by these directors are the heart and soul of their films, which lays the foundation for the deeply thought provoking and emotionally bleak underpinnings found within. If you take away the score from the Martin Scorsese existential cinema classic Taxi Driver, you have taken the life from the film. Fellini's La Strada and Ingmar Bergman's The Seventh Seal are two of the most challenging philosophical films ever made, and their music is the very life of the film's meaning and emotional experience. These scores are anything but fun, but rather deeply haunting and poignant. Yet, you say you have seen the films I have listed, but still I am not convinced. Elaborate on the films you have seen which actually challenge the viewer. Once again, I am not inquiring on your enjoyment of film music, but rather your general credibility to assess the genre as a whole. Without a true conviction or appreciation for film, you cannot grasp the power of its music. Similarly, without a true love or genuine respect for the theatrics and conception of Opera, you can never truly appreciate the whole of its music beyond a superficial enjoyment.

[Don]

How is soliciting a discussion pedantic? Which compositions have you heard? There is probably more "meat for existential philosophical rumination" in film music than you will find in any music written in the 18th or 19th century. Existentialism is a 20th Century philosophy, and postmodernism entails music such as serialism, minimalism, and avant-garde music which reflects an individual person's struggle with the possibility of a meaningless universe. All of this music you can find most prominent in film. You have the foundations laid by the 20th Century angst of Mahler and Shostakovich, and from there its the mid-late 20th Century modernism to where film music becomes increasingly the dominant orchestral medium. The films of Alfred Hitchcock, Darren Aronofsky, Fredrico Fellini, Francis Ford Coppola, Martin Scorsese, and Ingmar Bergman are directly associated with existential philosophical inquiries. The music used by these directors are the heart and soul of their films, which lays the foundation for the deeply thought provoking and emotionally bleak underpinnings found within. If you take away the score from the Martin Scorsese existential cinema classic Taxi Driver, you have taken the life from the film. Fellini's La Strada and Ingmar Bergman's The Seventh Seal are two of the most challenging philosophical films ever made, and their music is the very life of the film's meaning and emotional experience. These scores are anything but fun, but rather deeply haunting and poignant. Yet, you say you have seen the films I have listed, but still I am not convinced. Elaborate on the films you have seen which actually challenge the viewer. Once again, I am not inquiring on your enjoyment of film music, but rather your general credibility to assess the genre as a whole. Without a true conviction or appreciation for film, you cannot grasp the power of its music. Similarly, without a true love or genuine respect for the theatrics and conception of Opera, you can never truly appreciate the whole of its music beyond a superficial enjoyment.

You seem to be laying it on extra thick.  It's just movie music, you know.  Also, I find it very odd to think that Taxi Driver would have no life without its soundtrack.  Actually, I feel this movie would have been most effective without any soundtrack at all.

Also, your arrogant tone towards James is a loser.  To suggest that he doesn't understand the film genre is ridiculous.  Then again, you'll likely think I don't understand it either.

[Israfel the Black]

OK OK ...enough already...i'll check out some of these again!!!!

I'm expecting to have a life changing experience, or I'll be coming looking for blood.

Heh... it's not my intention to change your opinion necessarily. I just believe, in order for someone to truly have a credible opinion on film music you have to a considerable respect for the medium in which it is composed for. If you explore the films of a true art directors, and not the typical mainstream studio fanfare, you will be exposed to a lot of great music. If your opinion is unchanged, at least you will have a perspective and grounds for insight for where those who greatly value this music are coming from, and perhaps understand why Carnegie Hall would host sold out concerts for the music of Ennio Morricone.

[Israfel the Black]

You seem to be laying it on extra thick.  It's just movie music, you know.  Also, I find it very odd to think that Taxi Driver would have no life without its soundtrack.  Actually, I feel this movie would have been most effective without any soundtrack at all.

Also, your arrogant tone towards James is a loser.  To suggest that he doesn't understand the film genre is ridiculous.  Then again, you'll likely think I don't understand it either.

I don't know if you understand film or not. I don't know if I understand film either; but at least if you have a broad experience with film you can discuss it intellectually. I only challenged James to elaborate on his experiences with film music, to which it seemed he was very reluctant to do. I disagree that its "just movie music", which is the point of my argument.

As for Taxi Driver, yes perhaps it would have been effective without the music, but most effective? It is widely considered one of the finest scores written for a film, and properly invokes the atmosphere, mood, and cynicism of the character during many of the scenes. Taxi Driver in itself is a very subtle film, as is the score, but many filmmakers believe music is the magic which brings life to the film's mood and meaning. I think this is very true for Nino Rota's The Godfather and La Strada. It is similar to the way the actor's performance brings life to the film's written dialogue. I am not asking if you, James, or anyone understands film, but more importantly, how much do truly you appreciate it? If film isn't as meaningful to you as say a novel or an opera, then I can easily understand your sentiments that film music is just nothing more than "movie music" after all.

[Don]

Heh... it's not my intention to change your opinion necessarily. I just believe, in order for someone to truly have a credible opinion on film music you have to a considerable respect for the medium in which it is composed for. If you explore the films of a true art directors, and not the typical mainstream studio fanfare, you will be exposed to a lot of great music. If your opinion is unchanged, at least you will have a perspective and grounds for insight for where those who greatly value this music are coming from, and perhaps understand why Carnegie Hall would host sold out concerts for the music of Ennio Morricone.

Our local arena sells out for tractor pulls - "Sold out" is by itself not an impressive calling-card.  Now Morricone did compose many dozens of pieces of music in the "absolute" category.  Hope that the Carnegie Hall crowd didn't have endure an endless litany of movie music.  It's great when attached to DiNiro or Eastwood but suffers on its own.

[Israfel the Black]

Our local arena sells out for tractor pulls - "Sold out" is by itself not an impressive calling-card.  Now Morricone did compose many dozens of pieces of music in the "absolute" category.  Hope that the Carnegie Hall crowd didn't have endure an endless litany of movie music.  It's great when attached to DiNiro or Eastwood but suffers on its own.

That's unfortunate you feel that way. I am quite sure those who attend an Ennio Morricone concert expect film music as foremost and priority. Just like most concertgoes, they most want the familiar and beloved tunes for which they paid their ticket, not some obscure, unpopular concert work outside of the composer's specialization. I disagree considerably on his scores for The Mission and Once Upon A Time In America. Both of which can be enjoyed throughly, and "Gabriel's Oboe" contained in the former is one of the most beautiful pieces the composer has written, and holds up to any great form of "absolute music" by the purists typical favorite.

[Don]

That's unfortunate you feel that way. I am quite sure those who attend an Ennio Morricone concert expect film music as foremost and priority. Just like most concertgoes, they most want the familiar and beloved tunes for which they paid their ticket, not some obscure, unpopular concert work outside of the composer's specialization.

If they are so enamored of his film music, why don't they simply purchase the applicable movies?  Oh well, if someone wants to pay good money to hear film music without the film, that's their business.  I continue to maintain that film music loses much when divorced from the film.  It makes sense, and I also hear the loss.