Movie Soundtracks: Classical?

[tjguitar]

If they are so enamored of his film music, why don't they simply purchase the applicable movies?

Uh...dialogue? Sound effects?  Do you want to buy Beethoven's 5th with some random people talking randomly over the music?


did you seriously just suggest that if one wants to hear film music, that they should buy the film?? I have tons of film CDs of movies that I have never seen, and a good percentage that I have no desire of ever seeing.  The music is good, I enjoy it, and that's why I have it. I might go see a movie if it's composed by a composer I like, but most of the time I don't bother, movies are expensive, and I tend to prefer TV more anyway.

[Israfel the Black]

er, i dont understand what you are expecting from me, last time I listened the "emotional response" ... and "noticing & observing things" was the sum total of MY musical experience, which i have went over already with regards to film music and is why i feel i dont really need to own or listen to it much ... tell me, what am I missing?

If i were to compare my experiences of listening to film music with Bach for instance ...When I hear Bach, his music is so moving & so humbling...  his musical utterence exists on a level of human-spiritual nobility that serenely floats above the transient & inconsistent attempts of even the very great composers who followed him ... and they knew it too ! Its incomparable... the greatest solace, and the greatest joy. If anyone could convince me there is a divine hand in things ... he would do it. Film composer who? lol

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. When I say elaborate on experiences, I am not talking about the emotional feelings elicited by the music. I am talking about the different types of films and film music you have heard which constitute the basis for your general judgment of the genre. Nevertheless, if you stand by checking out the selections I listed and are still unimpressed, then at least we will actually have something to talk about.

If they are so enamored of his film music, why don't they simply purchase the applicable movies?  Oh well, if someone wants to pay good money to hear film music without the film, that's their business.  I continue to maintain that film music loses much when divorced from the film.  It makes sense, and I also hear the loss.

I suppose for the same reason I will buy a disc of Mozart arias from the store. The images and associations are already in my mind after seeing Don Giovani. I do not wish to recreate the opera experience, but rather appreciate the music itself in another venue. It's beautiful music, and I wish to savor it. I don't doubt the fans of Ennio Morricone own many of the films from the selected works. This is a form of flawed logic to assume concertgoers would not just as enjoy witnessing a live orchestra reinterpret his music just the same as those who do for any other sort of program music. The thematic emotions remain with the music. It is not the same as the film experience, but a different experience all on its own, and a general appreciation of the music. It is this sort of alienating reasoning which inhibits one from appreciating the music the same as other forms of program music.

[Israfel the Black]

Uh...dialogue? Sound effects?  Do you want to buy Beethoven's 5th with some random people talking randomly over the music?


did you seriously just suggest that if one wants to hear film music, that they should buy the film?? I have tons of film CDs of movies that I have never seen, and a good percentage that I have no desire of ever seeing.  The music is good, I enjoy it, and that's why I have it. I might go see a movie if it's composed by a composer I like, but most of the time I don't bother, movies are expensive, and I tend to prefer TV more anyway.

He is talking more about separating the music from the film experience, and its relation to the images for the viewer. The problem is that this holds true for any form of program music, and does not mean the viewer cannot appreciate the music for music's sake, rather than the sum of a comprehensive artistic experience when viewing a film.

[Israfel the Black]

pffff you a preacher? do you like listening to yourself talk? Like anyone else whos been around and gets out, OF COURSE ive experienced HORDES of movies of all kinds. I have heard many of the selections you have listed, & loads else as ive already stated before many times, perhaps youre not following....and i dont care what kind of movie its from, i am generally unimpressed with it as ive stated previously. Nothing you can say will change that. No offence but, the music of film composers is a musical amoeba compared with the greatest most profoundly moving music i have heard. It doesnt even remotely come close.


There isnt much else to discuss beyond that...

Which films have you seen from my list? This point is isolated from the rest of my argument. Of course you have seen "hordes" of movies, who hasn't? But how do you regard cinema? Do you appreciate it on a philosophical and emotional level in the same degree as other forms of art? If not, then you are right, when it comes to film music there is nothing to discuss.

[Israfel the Black]

cant be assed to go back and check your list sorry....from it, i remember you mentioning the glass work which ive heard, and i dont like his music at all Zzzz, scorscese (whos one of my fave directors), as is hitchcock...but so what? ive heard many of the highly regarded film scores and seen the movies also, im a bit of movie fan and like all sorts...

I'll repost it for you:

1. Sergei Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky
2. Philip Glass' Koyaanisqatsi
3. Nino Rota's La Strada
4. Shostakovich's The Gadfly
5. Nino Rota's The Godfather, The Godfather Part II, The Godfather Part III
6. Bernard Herrman's Vertigo
7. Ennio Morricone's Once Upon A Time In America
8. Philip Glass' The Hours
9. Ennio Morricone's The Mission
10. Clint Mansell's Requiem For A Dream

Which of these films in particular have you seen?

This is a very different response from that which I get to music that I deeply love, which is a mystery and a Wonder to me.... of course music serves many purposes and feeds many hungers, but personally speaking the greatest joy & the greatest solace in life comes from the Mystery of music... music is unquestionably the deepest of the arts. So yeah, I like it better than film.

I am sure you like it better than film. But it seems you just like good storytelling and not much else. I think a lot of people feel cinema is a culmination of storytelling, performance, sound, and visual -- working equally in offering different components to the film. A good story isn't much with horrible actors, etc; Based on your assessment of film, I assume you do not like opera, musicals, or plays set to music, as they are not much different than cinema. I suppose in your view, music in these genres simply act as wallpaper and background noise merely reinforcing the visuals and story. It's a shame, because there is some truly profound stuff found in program music.

[Robert]

I just got back from watching an enjoyable indy 500. I just scanned over these posts. I just have a very short message here. James I could care less what  you think of movie music. Your B.S. is putting me to sleep. Israrfel is spending much too much time on this subject. I can only say that if it werent for movie music my interest in classical would probably never have happened....I do not compare classical composers with Movie Composers.  Why should I.... I enjoy alot of Movie music.  Ease up......Actually I am still waiting for another maven (sound67) to post his list......not worth getting bent out of shape over......

[Robert]

Robert this discussion is putting me to sleep ...


Israel....I have seen most of those films....not all but most, but i dont see what it has to do with anything...for me, yes...at the core of the best films you must have a good concept coupled with strong writing. Without this in place from the get go, well........

ok, thats it for me, were flogging a dead horse here and i went through it all already and dont want to get that involved anymore....

AMEN
Thank You James.....

[Israfel the Black]

Robert this discussion is putting me to sleep ...


Israel....I have seen most of those films....not all but most, but i dont see what it has to do with anything...for me, yes...at the core of the best films you must have a good concept coupled with strong writing. Without this in place from the get go, well........

ok, thats it for me, were flogging a dead horse here and i went through it all already and dont want to get that involved anymore....

The discussion put you to sleep because you avoided the same question about 5 times. You refuse to name a specific title because you will be unable to debate the music and content of the film once it is in question because I don't think you have seen any of the films I have listed. I don't see how establishing the story as the starting point for the film creation has anything to do with the final product. The libretto is the first part of the Opera, but probably not the most important.

[Grazioso]

do about this, you dont have to agree....and i said i have seen most of those films, and i have, i dont know how damn specific you want me to get? what is it exactly that you do not understand or comprehend? i dont go to the movie theater to hear the music, hell after a film experience a barely even consider or remember the music, thats the TRUTH....but the film music isnt the draw in the first place, nor

If you can watch a film and barely even consider or remember the music, that means one of two things: the music sucked and didn't perform its role adequately, or you aren't much of a movie lover and just aren't paying adequate attention, like someone who half listens to a Bach cantata and jumps to the conclusion "Classical music sucks, what a bore." It sounds like you don't really appreciate and analyze film as an art form, seeing how readily you dismiss or ignore one of its major components. This reminds me of the popular music thread, wherein you trivialized and underestimated jazz despite making it clear you don't have much empathy for or understanding of it in the first place.

Your Zappa signature quote is ironic

[sound67]

and i do not like opera, tend to prefer undramatised purest concert music, with nil corporate utility and free of sickly emotionalism that bogs down a lot of music...

ok, thats it for good now, had to get that off my chest.

So, basically, you're braindead AND emotionally hollow. Completely vacuous.

[sound67]

Your Zappa signature quote is ironic

I already told him. But he doesn't even realize THAT. How would he ever intellectually grasp something as complex as motion picture music?

[Bogey]

I do not agree with Bogey however that entire soundtracks should be released. Each and every complete soundtrack release is bound to be repetitive. Movie music benefits from regrouping and sometimes "remaking" the music into concert suites etc.

Thomas

I guess I should clarify this a bit more Thomas.  Would it not be nice to have both to choose from.  That is, an initial release of the soundtrack like most of them are now, and a later release that includes all the cues that were recorded, especially should one really enjoy the initial release.  Or at the VERY least, the complete score as used in the movie.  For example, I am most pleased that they took the time to release/add another full disc to the Superman music on disc (it originally came in a two LP format I believe).  Here is a review explaining:

Finally, more than 20 years after the premiere of Superman: The Movie, Warner Bros. and ace producer Nick Redman teamed up to present the complete score to this awesome comic book epic. At last, Williams' legions of fans can now hear the Prologue and Main Title as they were presented in the film, and several other previously unreleased tracks -- some never used in the final cut of the movie -- are heard for the first time. Also, as in other Redman-produced re-issues, the cues appear in chronological order, following the plot of Superman from beginning to end. In addition, alternative versions of the Superman March and the "Can You Read My Mind" vocal have been included.

I'm sure the above may not be for everybody, but I rather have the option of simply pressing my "next" button on my cd player (which I rarely do) than having an incomplete score.

FWIW, Film Score Monthly does a fantastic job of this, that is going back and remastering scores and making sure that as much of the music that has survived making it onto disc.

And your point about repetitiveness is well taken, however I have had fun from time to time, like I will today, listening to STAR WARS: A NEW HOPE in light of its 30th Anniversary.  It has some repetition that I am glad survived, and I quote from the liner notes :

As a special bonus, all five of the recorded takes of the Main Title are presented at the end of track 13 on Compact Disc One.  At the conclusion of the "Binary Suite (alternate)", two minutes and forty five seconds of silence precedes the continuous presentation of takes 16 through 20, complete with slate numbers and incidental noise.  Take 16 has particular historical value, as it is the world's first recording of the Star Wars theme.  In it the wind section provides prominent flourish, which was toned down in take 17 after Williams and Lucas evaluated the feedback.  The addition of brass to the second half of the cue distinguishes takes 18, 19, and 20, portions of which were utilized to create the edited Main Title as heard on track 2 and in the film.

I can also see where the above repetitiveness is not for everybody, but I am pleased to have these repeats and extra cues on my shelf.

[Bogey]

Grazioso,

youre dead wrong about that my friend, i love movies, and youre arguement that the background music is one of the most important components of a film doesnt hold any water at all my friend, its simply not true. ..hardly a consideration of someone who is following a movie's story. and its never the draw of the movie goer. NEVER. like i said earlier in this thread i find much music in film, unnecessary and even intrusive....a lot of it is melodramatic cheese, overblown slushy corny tunes & formalic...

I hope you excuse the cropping of your thread here james, but wanted to focus in on this point.  Though I believe we are discussing just a matter of personal taste here, there are films where the music can "BE THE SHOW" at moments IMO, or at the very least heighten them.  For example:

The famous cue from Jaws (First Victim/and used in other cues) made that opening scene in my opinion. (Williams)

Another, The Murder (shower scene) in Psycho.  Herrmann's music brought Hithcock's work here to a level that I find unmatched.

And then there is Shore's The Bridge Of Khazd Dum....man, that music definitely makes my heart pound faster during this scene.

The list could go on from my perspective.  I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here.

Oh, and one more: Williams' The Imperial March....'nuff said here. 

[Israfel the Black]

no, because youre absolutely brain dead and going nowhere with this, just someone whos SO touchy, protective & defensive about it, someone who continues to prod and question endlessly and cant take a hint! i have explained myself quite clearly and why i feel the way i do about this, you dont have to agree....and i said i have seen most of those films, and i have, i dont know how damn specific you want me to get? what is it exactly that you do not understand or comprehend? i dont go to the movie theater to hear the music, hell after a film experience a barely even consider or remember the music, thats the TRUTH....but the film music isnt the draw in the first place, nor however complex the production details....i go because the story and concept intrigues me. Who goes to a movie for the music first and foremost? Puh-lease..i know i dont.....You can take anyone one of those films and discuss it till youre blue in the face and it still wont change my idea and feeling towards anything i have already said. In fact, with those films you mentioned, some i remember, and some i plain dont, like most movies...in fact, i dont really watch movies over and over (there is no need to i find), once ive seen it, thats about it...it either stays with me for a bit (the good stuff) but usually it gets quickly forgotten! But i do like watching movies for entertainment.... and go to the movie theater quite a bit!!!

and i do not like opera, tend to prefer undramatised purest concert music, with nil corporate utility and free of sickly emotionalism that bogs down a lot of music...

ok, thats it for good now, had to get that off my chest.

The excessive ad hominem attacks plagued throughout your otherwise thoughtless post are both tactless and evasive. Instead of attacking my intelligence, perhaps it would be wiser to consider the actual question you are constantly evading. In an argument, it becomes necessary to continually repeat the same question until it has been answered in order for us to make any sort of progress in the discussion. Therefore, as you criticize me for drawing out a long argument through repetition of the same question, you yourself are exhausting the discussion due to your reluctance to answer this very simple question. There is nothing "protective or defensive" about my straightforward inquiry on which film in particular have you seen from my list. You claim you have seen several of them in at least four different posts, yet you refuse to name which one, even after the list was recreated for you. It would seem, for someone who has seen several of these films, it would be nothing for you to just mention the ones you have seen. Yet, it appears, as indicated by the end of your post, you have trouble remembering the films you have seen because they are rather insignificant and do not mean anything more than entertainment to you. This fits perfectly with my initial argument which was attached to my question. As it were, for someone who does not truly appreciate film as an art medium, and who views it as nothing more than entertainment, there is nothing to gain from this discussion, and as a result, your stance on film music is now already evident. I have established this point consistently throughout each of my posts. You simply do not appreciate film enough to value its music. Likewise, as you have indicated, you do not appreciate opera either, and naturally its music is viewed inferior to other forms of music. Therefore, your overall credibility to speak on film music as whole is both limited and of no real value, represented by your general view that it is merely an entertainment medium in which you are unlikely to view films more than once (which means films do not have a significant impact on you, nor are you able to get reacquainted with the elements of the film which contribute to the overall latent experience), which is coupled with your inability to name a single film you have seen from my list.

[Don]

Well, I've seen The Mission and Vertigo.  What's your point about the music for these two films?

[Israfel the Black]

What did you think of the movies?

[Robert]

Sure, same applies famously to Carpenter's Halloween slasher flick, with the catchy themes, the music can sometimes enhance or compliment what is already there visually, and stand out in moments of a film, the often predictable scary music and sentimental passages etc, but its never the show though, its more a little icing on the cake, but you must have the cake FIRST, a crappy story with great music, is still a crap story, you can try to polish that turd, but it will always be a turd, but a great story with even mediocre or no music can work.......nor is film music, getting back to my core point as moving or profound, even the very best of them....and my point that you selectively snipped from, was that you dont go to those films initially based on the background music do you? No, you go because you liked the concept of those films to begin with. Jaws & Psycho are 2 of my favorite films btw. I love those stories. So is Taxi Driver, actually I generally really like the work of Scorcese and Hitchcock A LOT. But I also like many many films where there is hardly, if any, music at all. I like films solely based on the story/concept, that is where it is at for me. In fact, I tend to prefer scaled down and simple movies, where the heart lies in the strength of the story and dialog, rather than in all the surface production and flash, so not so much overblown Hollywood fair.

I liked both the Mission and Vertigo, i barely recall the music though off hand....

You did say this discussion was putting you to sleep. I had decided to drop out until you mentioned you could not remember the music of mission or vertigo. Might I remind you of the nightmare scene (SAUL BASS) that Jimmy Stewart has.. between the cartoon artwork and the music that made the scene. How could you forget Gabriels Oboe.??..Perhaps you need to turn your hearing aid up abit when you go to these movies...

[Don]

What did you think of the movies?

I love both Vertigo and The Mission.  I don't recall much about the Vertigo music except that I thought it over-the-top.  I think the score to The Mission is much better and it has stuck in my memory bank; the music enhanced my enjoyment of the film, so it served its primary purpose.

My wife and I will be watching The Queen today; I'll try to keep my ears glued to the music and will ask Ellen Jane her opinion also.

[Bogey]

Sure, same applies famously to Carpenter's Halloween slasher flick, with the catchy themes, the music can sometimes enhance or compliment what is already there visually, and stand out in moments of a film, the often predictable scary music and sentimental passages etc, but its never the show though, its more a little icing on the cake....

From what I have read, and heard in interviews, I believe that the likes Hitchcock, Spielberg, and Scorsese take the music component of their films a bit more seriously than "icing on the cake".  Sometimes even enough to fire someone like Bernard Herrmann (see Torn Curtain).  I could be wrong here, but doubt it.  However, here is a story you may or may not be familiar with that addresses Hitch wanting no music and Herrmann going the other way:

Hitchcock filmed Psycho on a tight television production budget and schedule, completing filming with a television crew in only five weeks. Upon completion of principal photography Hitchcock himself had begun to have serious misgivings about the picture. It seemed somehow flat and lifeless, and he gave serious thought for a time to cutting the film down to an hour and releasing it as a part of his long running television series. When Bernard Herrmann viewed the film he saw deeper possibilities and asked the director to entrust the film to him while the director went away on vacation. Hitchcock agreed asking only one favor of Herrmann, that he not score the shower sequence, preferring that the murder be illustrated only by the lonely sound of the running shower. When Hitchcock returned from vacation he viewed the picture with the additional element of music. Due to budgetary constraints, Herrmann was reduced to using only strings for the film without any other instrumentation. (The composer remarked later that a black and white film required the simplicity of a black and white score) Herrmann had, however, ignored Hitchcock's instruction not to score the shower sequence, trusting that he had enough respect from his employer to take a chance on risking the loss of the director's legendary temper. When Hitchcock saw the completed scenes with Herrmann's shrieking violins tearing at Janet Leigh's vulnerable torso, along with Anthony Perkins' knife, he gave his nod of approval. "But Hitch," Herrmann asked. "I thought you didn't want any music during the shower sequence?" To which Hitchcock replied "Improper suggestion, my boy, improper suggestion."

and a link to the rest, should you wish to read it, which I highly recommend:

http://www.bernardherrmann.org/articles/misc/torncurtain/

Robert,
Is that you on the right? 

[Robert]

From what I have read, and heard in interviews, I believe that the likes Hitchcock, Spielberg, and Scorsese take the music component of their films a bit more seriously than "icing on the cake".  Sometimes even enough to fire someone like Bernard Herrmann (see Torn Curtain).  I could be wrong here, but doubt it.  However, here is a story you may or may not be familiar with that addresses Hitch wanting no music and Herrmann going the other way:

Hitchcock filmed Psycho on a tight television production budget and schedule, completing filming with a television crew in only five weeks. Upon completion of principal photography Hitchcock himself had begun to have serious misgivings about the picture. It seemed somehow flat and lifeless, and he gave serious thought for a time to cutting the film down to an hour and releasing it as a part of his long running television series. When Bernard Herrmann viewed the film he saw deeper possibilities and asked the director to entrust the film to him while the director went away on vacation. Hitchcock agreed asking only one favor of Herrmann, that he not score the shower sequence, preferring that the murder be illustrated only by the lonely sound of the running shower. When Hitchcock returned from vacation he viewed the picture with the additional element of music. Due to budgetary constraints, Herrmann was reduced to using only strings for the film without any other instrumentation. (The composer remarked later that a black and white film required the simplicity of a black and white score) Herrmann had, however, ignored Hitchcock's instruction not to score the shower sequence, trusting that he had enough respect from his employer to take a chance on risking the loss of the director's legendary temper. When Hitchcock saw the completed scenes with Herrmann's shrieking violins tearing at Janet Leigh's vulnerable torso, along with Anthony Perkins' knife, he gave his nod of approval. "But Hitch," Herrmann asked. "I thought you didn't want any music during the shower sequence?" To which Hitchcock replied "Improper suggestion, my boy, improper suggestion."

and a link to the rest, should you wish to read it, which I highly recommend:

http://www.bernardherrmann.org/articles/misc/torncurtain/

Robert,
Is that you on the right? 

Yes Bill, in one of my more classic poses. except I wear tinted glasses....Im sure you remember my sleeping through this thread....James just won't let me rest..... ;)I do give him some credit here for being very persistent.....its only a movie.....see what you started BTW your hitch story is correct....