Movie Soundtracks: Classical?

[Robert]

havent seen either in a long long time i must admit, though i generally remember liking them, Vertigo more so than the Mission...i wonder how they will hold up, watching movies a 2nd time around is never like the first experience because you know how it goes already, i never buy movies, and rarely watch movies again and again ...i remember catching Star Wars for the 2nd time many years later on tv, i liked it as a kid, but now its just essentially cowboys and indians in outer space to me and a joke...ive always loved the concept of jaws too, but after seeing bits again many years later its not the same...

And Bogey, of course, the director have to consider it more than the movie goer, still doesnt prove anything...because without a strong story there from the get go, you have nothing. 

James I sometimes watch movies more than once (IE: Hitchcock and Woody Allen) on the other hand my youngest daughter (10) and my wife can watch movies over and over and over...

[Israfel the Black]

I liked both the Mission and Vertigo, i barely recall the music though off hand....

Or the movies themselves, I surmise.

In Vertigo, I vividly remember the use of Mozart, and the use of Poulenc in Hitchcock's The Rope. And the use of Bartok & Ligeti works in some of Kubrick's efforts.

That's interesting. You hear a work from a renowned classical composer and instantly remember the music, yet interestingly forget the other "unnecessary and intrusive" music being played randomly throughout. It is clear you are true music aficionado who only hears the brilliance of past geniuses and filters out the rest.

I love both Vertigo and The Mission.  I don't recall much about the Vertigo music except that I thought it over-the-top.  I think the score to The Mission is much better and it has stuck in my memory bank; the music enhanced my enjoyment of the film, so it served its primary purpose.

My wife and I will be watching The Queen today; I'll try to keep my ears glued to the music and will ask Ellen Jane her opinion also.

I haven't seen The Queen. I would suggest Children of Men and Volver for some great films of 2006 if you have not seen them, and both very strong musically. L'Enfant is also a great film which utilizes no score at all in the film, and is still very affecting. However, the fact that both you and James are unable to recall the music of Vertigo I think is rather telling in itself. I could understand for the casual viewer, but for orchestral music fans, it is a bit surprising. Nevertheless, I do not notice every detail involved in contributing to my enjoyment of the film experience. I believe neither of you are realizing the latent experience involved in viewing a film, which fortunately we have filmmakers who are devoted craftsman with mindsets aware of the power of music, whether latent or not. It may be a compelling performance that exemplifies a specific scene, yet in my mind I may only recall the great writing, or vice versa. This does not mean either is subjected to the other, or that they are in the background merely confirming the others autonomy, but rather working in unison, the way the cello does with the double basses of an orchestra, or a solo bassoon passage played in a symphonic piece. This is the greatness of the film experience. Unfortunately, James doesn't watch movies more than once, but I have often returned to a film and realized how brilliant the music was in a particularly moving scene that I was so invested in initially I did not extract the individual components of the experience. I then would go out and buy the soundtrack, and appreciate the music on its own terms. Nevertheless, if film is merely entertainment for the both of you, then the discussion of art music in film is ultimately moot.

[Grazioso]

Grazioso,

youre dead wrong about that my friend, i love movies, and youre arguement that the background music is one of the most important components of a film doesnt hold any water at all my friend, its simply not true. ..hardly a consideration of someone who is following a movie's story. and its never the draw of the movie goer. NEVER. like i said earlier in this thread i find much music in film, unnecessary and even intrusive....a lot of it is melodramatic cheese, overblown slushy corny tunes & formalic...and the very few movie scores, which get any attention apart from the film, are nowhere near in my experience as profoundly deep or moving as the greatest that art music has to offer as ive already clearly stated before. It seems with those Hollywood guys, all that matters is that John Williams or one of the usual clique, get the chance to use up lots of money on music on the premise that only a big budget film with big budget music from a big orchestra is any good, when in fact generally the opposite is true !

The fact that you lump film music into the category of "background music" demonstrates that you don't know film well or only appreciate it on the simplistic level of "story with visuals and a little music". At its best, the music is an integral part of the art form, working in concert with the visuals and other audio to create the full emotional impact and import of each scene. Yes, there's indifferent, tedious film music, just as there is prosaic cinematography, unimaginative scripts, and inept acting. But the good music is indelibly linked to the overall experience because of how profoundly it helps shape the way we perceive what we're seeing (and vice versa).

For me, as a music lover and film lover alike, I necessarily pay attention to what's happening sonically during each scene, not just the dialog or visuals. I can't help but remember particular scenes or my experience of whole films without their music immediately leaping to mind since it forms an inextricable part of the whole. Indeed, sometimes the music sticks with me long after the rest.

[Bogey]

And Bogey, of course, the director have to consider it more than the movie goer, still doesnt prove anything...because without a strong story there from the get go, you have nothing.  

I do not disagree that one needs a strong story for a good film....nonetheless, the music can be as profound/memorable/enjoyable, at least for me, as much as the film.  Maybe that is why I own just as many, if not more, soundtracks than dvds.

However, sometimes the music is worth having even when the story is poor.  The following fall into that category for me:

The American President
Batman
Down With Love
Hook
Legends of the Fall
and of course, Titanic

[Robert]

I do not disagree that one needs a strong story for a good film....nonetheless, the music can be as profound/memorable/enjoyable, at least for me, as much as the film.  Maybe that is why I own just as many, if not more, soundtracks than dvds.

However, sometimes the music is worth having even when the story is poor.  The following fall into that category for me:

The American President
Batman
Down With Love
Hook
Legends of the Fall
and of course, Titanic

Bill
What about Gladiator??

[bhodges]

Coincidentally, Alex Ross posted this on his blog in pondering scores to film comedies.  I do agree with his assessment of the music to Vertigo and Chinatown (which I forgot about).

--Bruce

[Robert]

Coincidentally, Alex Ross posted this on his blog in pondering scores to film comedies.  I do agree with his assessment of the music to Vertigo and Chinatown (which I forgot about).

--Bruce

We all know what movie that photo is from?   Now I am trying to figure out how that scene would play out without any music.....IT WON"T.......

[Bogey]

Bill
What about Gladiator??

Ah!  I knew there was reason I enjoyed that film so much.

[orbital]

May not count, as the full soundtrack is far from being classical infused, but I like Thomas Newman's closing theme from American Beauty as a [sort of] minimalist composition.

[Robert]

Most yes.

Yes i do remember those Hitchcock instances, the use of music was integral to the actual character dialog, script and scene, it wasnt some tacked on later added background music. The Kubrick i remember, because I am a huge admirer of Bartok & Ligeti, their music means so much to me...so it just stands out instantly.

I take it you loved Amadeus and immortal beloved....mostly because you know their music?

[Israfel the Black]

May not count, as the full soundtrack is far from being classical infused, but I like Thomas Newman's closing theme from American Beauty as a [sort of] minimalist composition.

Well Philip Glass' score for The Hours is beautiful post-minimalism. It varies structurally and musically, but maintains consistent rhythms and arpeggios, ala a Bruckner symphony.

Yes i do remember those Hitchcock instances, the use of music was integral to the actual character dialog, script and scene, it wasnt some tacked on later added background music.

Yes it was, that's exactly what it was. It was later added to be played in the background. Yet, still integral to the actual film, which proves my earlier sentiments that you are an elitist only to music you are familiar with by the usual greats, and any new music you do not recognize instantly in a film is readily assumed as trivial. This is a very close minded approach, especially when the mind must be like a parachute. Just for the fact you seem to believe nothing good has been written since the serialists of the 20th Century already says a lot about you.

[Robert]

This just popped into my mind...a classic film THE THIRD MAN, what would that movie be without that simple zither....BIG DIFFERENCE.....But I am sure James never heard of Anton Karras.....

[Israfel the Black]

Yeah, nothing can happen without a clever concept and a strong script, then you move on to casting....and then how youre going to shoot the thing, then once its all shot, the editing etc....the music is usually included after the all of this, as a final touch, thats what i ment about "icing on the cake".

It is now most evident you understand little to nothing about the filmmaking process. I have never once heard of a filmmaker who creates a film and does the music last. The music is being written, scored, and prepared from the time the filmmaking process begins. It takes a composer months to complete a score, and usually longer than the duration of the film process. They work with ideas until they get some shots, they work with those shots until they get the final product. They already have the cues from the screenplay, and can work from there. The editing process is the same as the sound mixing process, and the music is added and arranged just at the same time the scenes and audio are added. Because the editing process is last does not mean it is the least important. In fact, George Lucas believes the editing is the most important and integral part of the film making process. Yes, how the film is arranged and put together is the heart of a film, and not more important than its story, but mutually important.

As for the other major flaw in your logic, a bad story is no less than a film with bad acting, horrendous music, bad writing, or bad photography. They are all interrelated , this is why you misunderstand the role of music. Yes, the concept or story is typically the foundation of the film, but that has nothing to do with the greatness of the other components. That is simply absurd. Is all music not based or inspired by some conception or idea? All great art is contingent to it's core based conception. Answer truthfully, is acting an art? How important is the actor's performance to the film? Are you moved by performances, do believe the actors have the power to express deep philosophical insight and emotion? In light of your view of opera and film, it already seems music is the only art worth mentioning for you, as the rest is just "sickly emotionalism that bogs down a lot of music". If you believe acting is an art form, is it not subjected to the written text, concept, and story? If we take story away, doesn't it fall flat? How is performance created on a story any different than music created for the story? A story is merely a foundation, the performance, photography, and music bring it to life. It is clear to me you not only have narrow view of film, but of all performing art in general.

[Robert]

what about 'the pianist', 'shine' or even 'amadeus' and many many others...where it is actually integral to the story.

James have you been napping again...see my above post.....

[Robert]

hey rob, never saw that film, so...

sorry about that, I meant two above.....actually while I have you here, I think it would be a good idea if you get ahold of a copy of the movie The third man. Besides being a classic movie you can then hear for yourself the difference one instrument makes in a movie....

[Don]

I haven't seen The Queen. I would suggest Children of Men and Volver for some great films of 2006 if you have not seen them, and both very strong musically. L'Enfant is also a great film which utilizes no score at all in the film, and is still very affecting. However, the fact that both you and James are unable to recall the music of Vertigo I think is rather telling in itself.

It tells me that it's been many years since I've seen Vertigo and that I likely didn't find the music an enhancement.  If you find it otherwise, that's just a case of differing preferences.  

[Robert]

actually no, i didnt like either film to be honest....amadeus wasnt awful but i didnt think it was great, and immortal beloved was dreadful imo.

James my boy, your missing the point......

[Israfel the Black]

Yeah but a film goer doesnt have to understand how movies are made to enjoy them, just like experiencing any art, you dont have to know how its done do you, it is truly immaterial and that is where your major flaw is. For me, the concept and story ARE the crux of the whole thing, if you dont have that, nothing on earth will save it. You can have the biggest budget in the world. You can cast the most famous actors to play the parts, have the best cameras, the greatest editing team, a fancy composer...but if that script and story is jut crap all of that stuff wont mean a damn thing. Youre bringing to life, a waste of time. And most movies are this. No surprise.

Did you even read my post? I didn't say you have to understand how they are made to enjoy them, but don't presume to know the process if you really don't, and then try to defend it with some sort of metaphysical statement on immaterial art. The point is that you were trying to discredit film music for being secondary to story, even though all performing art, whether it be dance, music, or dramatic performance is dependent upon theme, concept, or story. It's irrational reasoning to assume story based art is exclusive to film music.

[Robert]

well you better explain yourself then

were you not implying that if you knew the composer it would make a difference to how you perceived the soundtrack?

[Robert]

um no. wake up sleepy head...

"In Vertigo, I vividly remember the use of Mozart, and the use of Poulenc in Hitchcocks The Rope, and the use of Bartok and Ligeti works in some of Kubricks efforts"  That is a direct quote from you. You have a short memory. Maybe abit over your head.....What you smokin boy??