Mozart a fraud?

[karlhenning]

It's coming out a few months after somebody produces newspaper reports of Mozart's reputation in Vienna as a composer and virtuoso performer during the last decade of his life.

Thanks for your three-hundredth non-answer on this thread.

The publisher is not decided yet.

A most delicate evasion!

The altered subject header tickles me, I thank you!  It is the most nearly creative thing you've contributed to the thread.

[robnewman]

Thanks for your three-hundredth non-answer on this thread.

A most delicate evasion!

The altered subject header tickles me, I thank you!  It is the most nearly creative thing you've contributed to the thread.

Well, I'd love to be more specific but it seems that nobody can find the evidence we are all waiting for. Doesn't exist, it seems. Nobody can blame us, of course !

[Lethevich]

35 pages! 

I stopped following the discussion at least 10 pages ago...

That's a shame, Rob's neurosis has really blossomed in the past few pages - you're missing out!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Well, I'd love to be more specific but it seems that nobody can find the evidence we are all waiting for. Doesn't exist, it seems. Nobody can blame us, of course !

If I'd find some newspaper report praising Mozart, Mr Newman, you would simply say that was all part of the conspiracy. No evidence can convince you, because it's all a 'fraud'. So it's up to you to 'expose' it.

As I said earlier - finish your book and publish it!

[robnewman]

If I'd find some newspaper report praising Mozart, Mr Newman, you would simply say that was all part of the conspiracy. No evidence can convince you, because it's all a 'fraud'. So it's up to you to 'expose' it.

As I said earlier - finish your book and publish it!

Well, Jeztha, we've been on this subject now for most of today and you can see that no evidence of the kind that is assumed to exist has yet been presented. Which makes me think that people believe what they want to believe and never actually ask what the evidence says.

But yes, I will shortly sign off here.

[PSmith08]

If I'd find some newspaper report praising Mozart, Mr Newman, you would simply say that was all part of the conspiracy. No evidence can convince you, because it's all a 'fraud'. So it's up to you to 'expose' it.

As I said earlier - finish your book and publish it!

Indeed, it seems almost pathological to seek evidence at the request of someone who will "explain" that evidence away as not signifying what it apparently signifies. It's rather like a chum asking you to pick him up a hamburger at McDonald's and then "explaining" how what you brought him is not in fact a hamburger from McDonald's, despite all indications. Sooner or later, you should probably stop bringing him hamburgers, for his sake and your own.

[karlhenning]

If I'd find some newspaper report praising Mozart, Mr Newman, you would simply say that was all part of the conspiracy. No evidence can convince you, because it's all a 'fraud'. So it's up to you to 'expose' it.

And for the fortieth time . . . he'll spew his evasive boilerplate.  But you've said the truth clear as an unmuddied lake.

Someone, please: send Rob Newman to school!

[robnewman]

Indeed, it seems almost pathological to seek evidence at the request of someone who will "explain" that evidence away as not signifying what it apparently signifies. It's rather like a chum asking you to pick him up a hamburger at McDonald's and then "explaining" how what you brought him is not in fact a hamburger from McDonald's, despite all indications. Sooner or later, you should probably stop bringing him hamburgers, for his sake and your own.

Very true. Just yesterday we saw a classic example of what you are saying. The repeated statement by Lorenzo da Ponte, long time colleague of Mozart, that he, Mozart, was unknown in Vienna. Hidden. And, exactly as you say, ' evidence doesn't signify what it so apparently signifies'. And today we see further examples in the inability of an entire forum to present some newspaper evidence of Mozart's great Viennese musical reputation from the whole decade of his life there.

It's an occupational hazard, it seems !

[PSmith08]

Very true. Just yesterday we saw a classic example of what you are saying. The repeated statement by Lorenzo da Ponte, long time colleague of Mozart, that he, Mozart, was unknown in Vienna. Hidden. And, exactly as you say, ' evidence doesn't signify what it so apparently signifies'. And today we see further examples in the inability of an entire forum to present some newspaper evidence of Mozart's great Viennese musical reputation from the whole decade of his life there.

It's an occupational hazard, it seems !

Why, then, maybe you can help me with this: what do we do with the subordinate clause "thanks to the intrigues of his rivals" (or whatever it is verbatim)? Does it not signify what it apparently signifies? What does it signify? If all the evidence does not signify what it apparently signifies, then how can you construct an argument? Surely you need some sort of Mozart decoder ring!

[robnewman]

J.B. Vanhal
String Quartet in A Major
4th Movement
Vienna 1780/1

http://www.mediafire.com/?vamyzywytk3

[Scarpia]

Easy. He falsely describes himself as a Kapellmeister and has a group of adoring fraternity members who cheer him. The rest of the world being ignorant of his very existence. Including Vienna. As we see here in the case of Mozart 1781-1791 in his home city of Vienna.

The review of the concert may have been published by Magazin der Musik in Hamburg, but the report came from Vienna.  I fail to see why reports published by reputable journals outside of Vienna should be discounted.

On the other hand, another few minutes with google unearthed this:

As cited by Mozart, a Documented Biography, Deutsch and Blom,

From the WeinerBlaettchen, 23 March, 1784:

Today, Thursday 1 April, Herr Kapellmeister Mozart will have the honor to hold a great musical concert for his benefit at the I&R National Court Theatre.  The pieces to occur in it are the following:  1) A grand Symphony with trumpets and drums.  2) An aria, sug by Herr Adamberger.  3) Her Mozartt, Kapellmeister, will play  an entirely new Concerto on the Fortepiano.  4) A quite new grand Symphony.  5) An aria, sung by Mlle Cavalieri.  6) Herr Mozart, Kapellmeister, will play an entirely new grand Quintet.  7) An aria, sung by Herr Marchesi senior.  8 ) Her Kapellmeister Mozart will improvise entirely alone on the Fortepiano.  9) To conclude a Symphony.  Apart from the three areas, everything is composed by Kapellmeister Mozart.

Ok, there you have it, published in Vienna, entirely documented.  Let's hear your pathetic evasion for this one.

http://books.google.com/books?id=e8AtwaddUW4C&pg=PA224&lpg=PA224&dq=weiner+zeitung+mozart&source=bl&ots=VXwRSVslYB&sig=klayUFly2pof3notARly00GpBr0&hl=en&ei=FsUeSuabCeSclQeJ2eTFBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA223,M1

[robnewman]

Why, then, maybe you can help me with this: what do we do with the subordinate clause "thanks to the intrigues of his rivals" (or whatever it is verbatim)? Does it not signify what it apparently signifies? What does it signify? If all the evidence does not signify what it apparently signifies, then how can you construct an argument? Surely you need some sort of Mozart decoder ring!

Yes, I will gladly help with this since you are confused. The idea of Mozart having rivals who intrigued against his Vienna career was first invented by his father, Leopold Mozart. For example, at the time of 'Le Nozze di Figaro' Leopold invented a conspiracy theory in which his son had un-named rivals who were against his career. The same is often refered to in the Mozart family correspondence, repeated by those involved in making his fake reputation including, as we see in the memoirs of Lorenzo da Ponte. And in none of these claims is anyone doing anything of the kind. Da Ponte could not claim Mozart was famous in Vienna. He knew that would be a massive lie. So he instead tells us he was a hidden jewel. This plus the usual statement about Mozart's enemies is typical of Lorenzo da Ponte.

/

[karlhenning]

Yes, I will gladly help with this since you are confused.

Oh, another witticism!  The blind leading the sighted!

Someone, please: send Rob Newman to school!

[PSmith08]

Yes, I will gladly help with this since you are confused. The idea of Mozart having rivals who intrigued against his Vienna career was first invented by his father, Leopold Mozart. For example, at the time of 'Le Nozze di Figaro' Leopold invented a conspiracy theory in which his son had un-named rivals who were against his career. The same is often refered to in the Mozart family correspondence, repeated by those involved in making his fake reputation including, as we see in the memoirs of Lorenzo da Ponte. And in none of these claims is anyone doing anything of the kind. Da Ponte could not claim Mozart was famous in Vienna. He knew that would be a massive lie. So he instead tells us he was a hidden jewel. This plus the usual statement about Mozart's enemies is typical of Lorenzo da Ponte.

How is it typical of Da Ponte? Are there other examples where he goes out of his way to praise long-dead colleagues as being unheralded geniuses? Why, furthermore, would Da Ponte be involved in building Mozart's "fake reputation"? Wouldn't it make more sense for Da Ponte to talk of being saddled with an unknown second-rater for his masterpieces? Even with the Mozart cult burgeoning by the time of the publication, surely Da Ponte had other options -- not least of which would have been to have remained silent and let the accolades for the "masterpieces" of Mozart roll in. Was Da Ponte not a rational actor?

Who suborned him? Why did they suborn him? Why would a cabal interested in increasing the glory of the Fatherland want an Italian to help do it? Surely there were Germans who could do it.

[robnewman]

The review of the concert may have been published by Magazin der Musik in Hamburg, but the report came from Vienna.  I fail to see why reports published by reputable journals outside of Vienna should be discounted.

On the other hand, another few minutes with google unearthed this:

As cited by Mozart, a Documented Biography, Deutsch and Blom,

From the WeinerBlaettchen, 23 March, 1784:

Today, Thursday 1 April, Herr Kapellmeister Mozart will have the honor to hold a great musical concert for his benefit at the I&R National Court Theatre.  The pieces to occur in it are the following:  1) A grand Symphony with trumpets and drums.  2) An aria, sug by Herr Adamberger.  3) Her Mozartt, Kapellmeister, will play  an entirely new Concerto on the Fortepiano.  4) A quite new grand Symphony.  5) An aria, sung by Mlle Cavalieri.  6) Herr Mozart, Kapellmeister, will play an entirely new grand Quintet.  7) An aria, sung by Herr Marchesi senior.  8 ) Her Kapellmeister Mozart will improvise entirely alone on the Fortepiano.  9) To conclude a Symphony.  Apart from the three areas, everything is composed by Kapellmeister Mozart.

Ok, there you have it, published in Vienna, entirely documented.  Let's hear your pathetic evasion for this one.

http://books.google.com/books?id=e8AtwaddUW4C&pg=PA224&lpg=PA224&dq=weiner+zeitung+mozart&source=bl&ots=VXwRSVslYB&sig=klayUFly2pof3notARly00GpBr0&hl=en&ei=FsUeSuabCeSclQeJ2eTFBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA223,M1

Well, if you describe my answer as a 'pathetic evasion' before you've even read it YOU are pathetic, aren't you ?

Of course we have numerous advertisements of concerts in Mozart's name from Vienna. This particular concert was advertised as were countless concerts.
So what ? Have you forgotten what we are actually looking for is evidence Mozart was a celebrated and famous composer/performer in Vienna during
this decade ? The mere advertising of a concert (a concert in which numerous others were actually involved as you can plainly see) proves nothing. Marchesi is mentioned. Was he also a celebrated
composer/performer in Vienna ? No, he was not. So what exactly IS your point ? Anybody in Vienna reviewing a Mozart concert, for example ? Who ? Where ? When ? I could become a Kapellmeister
myself if I placed ads in the paper.

We want evidence Mozart was a famous and celebrated composer of music in Vienna during the decade he lived there. And this is NOT it.

Get it yet ?

Back to the 'drawing board'. ? Let's hope you come up with something substantial next time.

P.S. Mozart was NOT (I REPEAT NOT) a 'Kapellmeister' AT ANY TIME IN HIS ENTIRE LIFE. IT'S YET ANOTHER LIE. It was a title he fraudulently used.
Just to keep you posted of the FACTS rather than the fictions. People hired this concert hall all the time. Including names you've never heard of. It was
open for concerts by many, many people. This is NOT proof of Mozart being a famous, celebrated composer. It's the usual nonsense.

[karlhenning]

Because this is not "a normal person trying to make an argument."

We're looking at a major attention seeker here, who'll do anything to keep people annoyed with him.

Quoted for truth.

Someone, please: send Rob Newman to school!

[karlhenning]

Delighted that Herman got there first, actually

Newman,

you claim you have written a book on this subject and it's due in September. That means it's in production now. I want you to tell us a couple of things about this book:

which publisher is publishing this book

what is the title.

how many pages.

A propos your discussion with Catison about who is wasting time on internet forums: Catison question was legit since you claim to be busy with your book, and yet you clearly spend ten hrs a day, if not more, monitoring this thread, posting lengthy rebuttals and non-proofs. Catison clearly posts for pleasure, when time allows. That's the difference between wasting one's time and having fun.

However, be so good as to answer the 3 above questions. It should be simple.

Someone, please: send Rob Newman to school!

[karlhenning]

J.B. Vanhal
String Quartet in A Major
4th Movement
Vienna 1780/1

Tailored to the present non-event:

One doesn't have to be familiar with [Vanhal's] music. Even if it were terrific, that doesn't mean he also wrote Mozart's terrific music.

Someone, please: send Rob Newman to school!

[robnewman]

How is it typical of Da Ponte? Are there other examples where he goes out of his way to praise long-dead colleagues as being unheralded geniuses? Why, furthermore, would Da Ponte be involved in building Mozart's "fake reputation"? Wouldn't it make more sense for Da Ponte to talk of being saddled with an unknown second-rater for his masterpieces? Even with the Mozart cult burgeoning by the time of the publication, surely Da Ponte had other options -- not least of which would have been to have remained silent and let the accolades for the "masterpieces" of Mozart roll in. Was Da Ponte not a rational actor?

Who suborned him? Why did they suborn him? Why would a cabal interested in increasing the glory of the Fatherland want an Italian to help do it? Surely there were Germans who could do it.

I've answered your question. That's all.

[robnewman]

And lastly, since I am now busy -

J.B. Vanhal
String Quartet in A Major
4th Movement
c. 1780/1

http://www.mediafire.com/?vamyzywytk3

RN