Mozart a fraud?

[robnewman]

Cannot be much in the way of "evidence" to support the "claim" if it cannot be summarized here where it has been repeatedly asked for.

Once again, please list some books which you have read that call in to question the well known official career of Stravinsky and that of his musical achievements. Can you name some? We are still waiting. And we think you have read none.

Cor! What an easy game to play!

Someone, please: send Rob Newman to school!

Fact 1 - The musical works of Stravinsky have not involved dozens, even hundreds of works being falsely attributed to him.

Fact 2 - Nobody has presented evidence to the contrary

Fact 3 - The records of the Koechel Catalogue since its 1st edition until today have demonstrated the misattribution of literally hundreds of musical works which have falsely been attributed to W.A. Mozart. A fact admitted by everyone who has studied the subject.

//

[karlhenning]

Paul Dukas (1856-1935)

Paul Dukas was born in Paris to a Jewish father and Catholic mother. He studied under Théodore Dubois and Ernest Guiraud at the Conservatoire de Paris, where he became friends with the composer Claude Debussy. After completing his studies Dukas found work as a music critic and orchestrator; he was unusually gifted in orchestration and was one of the most sensitive and insightful critics of the era.  Although Dukas wrote a fair amount of music, he was a perfectionist and destroyed many of his pieces out of dissatisfaction with them. Only a few of his compositions remain. His first surviving work of note is the energetic Symphony in C (1896), which belongs to the tradition of Beethoven and César Franck. Like Franck's only symphony, Dukas' is in three movements rather than the conventional four: Allegro non troppo, ma con fuoco; Andante espressive e fuoco; Allegro spiritoso.

The symphony was followed by another orchestral work, L'apprenti sorcier (English: The Sorcerer's Apprentice) (1897), which is based on Goethe's poem "Der Zauberlehrling". The Sorcerer's Apprentice was used (in a slightly redacted version) in the Walt Disney film Fantasia - a total of perhaps one minute of the ten-and-a-half minute piece was omitted. Dukas's rhythmic mastery and vivid orchestration are evident in both the Symphony in C and the The Sorcerer's Apprentice.

For the piano, Dukas wrote two complex and technically demanding large-scale works, a Sonata in E-flat minor (1901) and Variations, interlude and finale on a theme of Rameau (1902), again reminiscent of Beethoven and Franck. (There are also two smaller works for piano solo.) The Sonata did not enter the mainstream repertoire, but it has been more recently championed by such pianists as Marc-André Hamelin.  The opera Ariane et Barbe-Bleue ("Ariadne and Bluebeard"), on which he worked from 1899 to 1907, has often been compared to Debussy's Pelléas et Mélisande, partly because of musical similarities and partly because both operas are based on libretti by Maurice Maeterlinck. Dukas's last major work was the sumptuous oriental ballet La Péri (1912) about a man who reached the Ends of the Earth in a quest to find immortality, coming across a mythical Peri, holding The Flower of Immortality.

In the last decades of his life, Dukas became well known as a teacher of composition, with many famous students including Joaquín Rodrigo, Manuel Ponce, Maurice Duruflé, Olivier Messiaen, Jehan Alain, Carlos Chávez, and David Van Vactor. After Dukas died, he joined the scores of other famous people buried in the Père Lachaise cemetery in Paris.

The symphonic scherzo L'apprenti sorcier has a series of remarkable similarities to a piece of Stravinsky's, Feu d'artifices.

Easy game!  No mental effort required!

Someone, please: send Rob Newman to school!

[robnewman]

Paul Dukas (1856-1935)

Paul Dukas was born in Paris to a Jewish father and Catholic mother. He studied under Théodore Dubois and Ernest Guiraud at the Conservatoire de Paris, where he became friends with the composer Claude Debussy. After completing his studies Dukas found work as a music critic and orchestrator; he was unusually gifted in orchestration and was one of the most sensitive and insightful critics of the era.  Although Dukas wrote a fair amount of music, he was a perfectionist and destroyed many of his pieces out of dissatisfaction with them. Only a few of his compositions remain. His first surviving work of note is the energetic Symphony in C (1896), which belongs to the tradition of Beethoven and César Franck. Like Franck's only symphony, Dukas' is in three movements rather than the conventional four: Allegro non troppo, ma con fuoco; Andante espressive e fuoco; Allegro spiritoso.

The symphony was followed by another orchestral work, L'apprenti sorcier (English: The Sorcerer's Apprentice) (1897), which is based on Goethe's poem "Der Zauberlehrling". The Sorcerer's Apprentice was used (in a slightly redacted version) in the Walt Disney film Fantasia - a total of perhaps one minute of the ten-and-a-half minute piece was omitted. Dukas's rhythmic mastery and vivid orchestration are evident in both the Symphony in C and the The Sorcerer's Apprentice.

For the piano, Dukas wrote two complex and technically demanding large-scale works, a Sonata in E-flat minor (1901) and Variations, interlude and finale on a theme of Rameau (1902), again reminiscent of Beethoven and Franck. (There are also two smaller works for piano solo.) The Sonata did not enter the mainstream repertoire, but it has been more recently championed by such pianists as Marc-André Hamelin.  The opera Ariane et Barbe-Bleue ("Ariadne and Bluebeard"), on which he worked from 1899 to 1907, has often been compared to Debussy's Pelléas et Mélisande, partly because of musical similarities and partly because both operas are based on libretti by Maurice Maeterlinck. Dukas's last major work was the sumptuous oriental ballet La Péri (1912) about a man who reached the Ends of the Earth in a quest to find immortality, coming across a mythical Peri, holding The Flower of Immortality.

In the last decades of his life, Dukas became well known as a teacher of composition, with many famous students including Joaquín Rodrigo, Manuel Ponce, Maurice Duruflé, Olivier Messiaen, Jehan Alain, Carlos Chávez, and David Van Vactor. After Dukas died, he joined the scores of other famous people buried in the Père Lachaise cemetery in Paris.

The symphonic scherzo L'apprenti sorcier has a series of remarkable similarities to a piece of Stravinsky's, Feu d'artifices.

Easy game!  No mental effort required!

Someone, please: send Rob Newman to school!

Professor Henning,

You don't play by any rules, do you ?

If you wish to write on the life and career of other composers you are free to make a special thread. But this thread is on W.A. Mozart.

That's lesson number 1.

Thank You

[karlhenning]

Fact 1 - The musical works of Stravinsky have not involved dozens, even hundreds of works being falsely attributed to him.

Fact 2 - Nobody has presented evidence to the contrary

Fact 3 - The records of the Koechel Catalogue since its 1st edition until today have demonstrated the misattribution of literally hundreds of musical works which have falsely been attributed to W.A. Mozart. A fact admitted by everyone who has studied the subject.

Fact: "Literally hundreds" is obvious exaggeration.

Fact: Newman's whole game is exaggeration and empty assertion.

Fact: Newman has not presented any evidence on this thread, where he has been asked for it repeatedly.

Fact: One of Newman's fond smokescreens is this "but I'm waiting, I'm willing, I'm wanting to send it to you!"  If it is going to be evidence in Gurn's hand or in Cato's, it will be evidence here.  Newman's bluff has been called.  Yet again.

Fact: Newman claims to have been aided by hundreds of librarians, yet he fails to name a single man jack of them.

Fact: Newman's German is inadequate to the task, but his premise is a faith-based initiative, so actual expertise on his part would be irrelevant.

Fact: Mozart learned music from his father, a professional musician.

Fact: Newman consistently glosses over this fact.

Fact: Newman consistently lies, by asserting the opposite.

Fact: Mozart's string quartets do not just sound like the string quartets of his lesser contemporaries.

Fact: Newman's only answer to this is boilerplate on the order of "the music of Josef Myslivececk is amazingly 'Mozartean', yes?"

Someone, please: send Rob Newman to school!

[karlhenning]

If you wish to write on the life and career of other composers you are free to make a special thread. But this thread is on W.A. Mozart.

That's lesson number 1.

Not quite.  This is the thread on W.A Mozart.

This thread is the Rob Newman's Carnival Claiming that Mozart was a Fraud thread.

My posts are on-topic.

Someone, please: send Rob Newman to school!

[karlhenning]

And, thank you for again underscoring your failure to address the call for facts and evidence by lesson number 1.

You are the funny one!

Someone, please: send Rob Newman to school!

[Todd]

But this thread is on W.A. Mozart.

No, it's about a silly charlatan who writes about Mozart being a fraud.  Once again, Bob, you got your facts wrong.

[robnewman]

No, it's about a silly charlatan who writes about Mozart being a fraud.  Once again, Bob, you got your facts wrong.

Todd,

Provide me with your email address and I will happily send you a recent publication with my best wishes on 'Mozart's' opera 'Le Nozze di Figaro', (2008) just as a gentle start to the subject.

Otherwise let's stop this nonsense. The dogmatists clearly don't want to examine the published discoveries of modern research and it is crystal clear they are and have always been willingly ignorant guardians of cultural mythology. This imposed on the musical world as 'musicology' but highly resistant to detailed criticism. A fact which anyone can see for themselves, even on this thread.

Students should protest at this nonsense. If any reader of this thread would like a free copy of this book (published in 2008) please let me know by PM.

And so ends my contribution to this very revealing thread.

Thank You

Robert Newman
Author of, 'The Manufacture of Mozart' (2009)

[karlhenning]

We are all protesting your nonsense.

You are actually deaf, aren't you?

Someone, please: send Rob Newman to school!

[Todd]

Provide me with your email address and I will happily send you a recent publication with my best wishes on 'Mozart's' opera 'Le Nozze di Figaro', (2008) just as a gentle start to the subject.

Otherwise let's stop this nonsense.

First of all, I read only worthwhile works, not inherently worthless ones.

Second, yes, please, stop the nonsense.  After 40+ pages, please stop.

[Christie]

J.B. Vanhal
Concerto for Viola and Orchestra
2nd Movement
(c.1777)

http://www.mediafire.com/?ojuelljeyew

-ditto-

3rd Movement

http://www.mediafire.com/?2mimzmuwjy2

//

Wow!  That sounds just as good as anything Mosart wrote.

And if someone who lived aroun the time of Mosart cud write just as good as Msart, that is close to meaning that he really wrote the music himself!

[robnewman]

We are all protesting your nonsense.

You are actually deaf, aren't you?

Someone, please: send Rob Newman to school!

Prof. Henning,

Believe as you please. So will others having examined these issues fairly, from different perspectives. In this way we learn and are qualified to form a considered judgement.

Thank You for your time.

R.E. Newman

[Josquin des Prez]

Wow!  That sounds just as good as anything Mosart wrote.

And if someone who lived aroun the time of Mosart cud write just as good as Msart, that is close to meaning that he really wrote the music himself!

Bob, cut it out would ya. This is really getting silly.

[robnewman]

First of all, I read only worthwhile works, not inherently worthless ones.

Second, yes, please, stop the nonsense.  After 40+ pages, please stop.

Todd, you started this thread and we note you've had almost nothing to say ever since. Perhaps you thought you would win easily ? But you lost. Big time. Welcome to the world of the musical underachievers who never read anything other than their own Mozartean dogmas fed to them on a drip system by the Mozart industry. And sanitised, edited, censored for you in advance. LOL ! 

As everyone can see.

[Christie]

Pointing out that you are demented is the only substantial contribution that can be made to this thread.  Has anyone ever agreed with or been convinced by anything you have ever posted here, or on any other similar web site?

I think he may be right.  We don't really know anthing about Mosart.  It's all in books, and books can be lies.

[robnewman]

Bob, cut it out would ya. This is really getting silly.

Yes, I've made my case. Mozart, patron saint of musical mythology. The FOX news of the musical underachiever.

Fin

[Christie]

Yes, I've made my case. Mozart, patron saint of musical mythology. The FOX news of the musical underachiever.

Fin

Tell them!

(Iz your name really Fin?)

[Todd]

Perhaps you thought you would win easily ? But you lost. Big time.

Two questions: 1.) What is there to win and lose?  Seriously.  2.) Only a few posts ago you said you were done posting on this thread, so why are you still posting?  Silly charlatan.

[Christie]

We are all protesting your nonsense.

You are actually deaf, aren't you?

Someone, please: send Rob Newman to school!

How can he be deaf?

He's written a book about music!

[Christie]

Fin, where can I read your Mosart book?