Mozart a fraud?

[Ten thumbs]

Perhaps he should move on to Beethoven. I haven't read a single book that questions Beethoven's life and career. This seems to suggest that it must all be a myth.

[robnewman]

There are only two possibilities:

1. The Trombetta & Bianchini book you've been parading does not exist. Then, you are a fraud for you refer us to something that does not exist.

2. The Trombetta & Bianchini book you've been parading does exist. Then, you are a liar for you claim something that it isn't true.

Quousque tandem abutere, Robertus Homonovus, patientia nostra?

You are on the wrong thread. What you need is the Jesuitical Propaganda Department. Right next door to the 'Keep em confused and dumbed down' Department.

[robnewman]

Perhaps he should move on to Beethoven. I haven't read a single book that questions Beethoven's life and career. This seems to suggest that it must all be a myth.

Every icon ever made by man is the sure product of myth. Especially those which rob you of the entire context. That's why we must not live on an Easter Island with our candyfloss 'Amadeus' and rows of statues like a pantheon of secular musical gods.  We must grow up and learn to examine/appreciate things from more than one 'official' storyline. Simple, right ? Then you can form your own considered judgement. It's called academic study. Fight your own ignorance and that of the mass media. Use your talents. Escape from the rat pack. And celebrate the fact some people don't want to be suckered generation after generation with mythology and by the mentality which aims to dumb you down. Appreciate difference. Serve others. Form your own view. Because one thing is sure. We live in an age where 'education', so-called, is fast becoming hogwash and where common sense forms little part of anything. Where teachers will speak nonsense in the name of education because they subscribe to the party line. That's as true of music history as it is of politics, banking, commerce, or anything else.

http://truthseeker2473.blogspot.com/2009/04/robert-newman-mozart-myth.html

[Joe_Campbell]

First off, have you ever considered that there is a general consensus about Mozart's life over the last two years because you are wrong? Secondly, as this thread has indicated, even the most 'conservative Mozarteans' do not agree with you.

Pack up your bags, your research toilet paper, and move on to a dumber forum, since you long ago wrote this one off.

[Joe_Campbell]

Pro-9/11 Truth Movement

Are you sure you want to be associated with this site?

[robnewman]

First off, have you ever considered that there is a general consensus about Mozart's life over the last two years because you are wrong? Secondly, as this thread has indicated, even the most 'conservative Mozarteans' do not agree with you.

Pack up your bags, your research toilet paper, and move on to a dumber forum, since you long ago wrote this one off.

Joe Campbell has made a typically hostile post. He has proved that hostility is the main feature of his education. Shall we promote him ? I mean, does his world applaud and encourage his nonsense ? Joe, I can hardly pack my bags or find a dumber forum if you are still resident here, can I ?  Nor can I leave if you ask me questions. The most recent being -

'Have you ever considered that there is a general consensus about Mozart's life' ?

In reply -

Yes, a general consensus about Mozart's life exists. And there is (or was) general consensus that the world is flat, that the Sun revolves around the Earth (rather than vice-versa).

You are guided by consensus ? In that case, Mr Consensus, humans are Chinese. And insects are the democratic governors of the word. Being far more numerous than humans. But I am not Chinese and am not an insect. So much for consensus !

What you really mean is you are dumbed down, and that you would much prefer others to be as dumbed down as you are yourself. If they are not, they should move on. Isn't that your view ?  You cannot name a single book which calls in to question the corporate image of your hero as a musical 'genius'. No, you are Mr Consensus. And this, to you, is enough. What a deadpan post !

So your contribution to this thread is exactly what ?

Don't feel bad about it. It's your destiny to be hostile and to make no contribution.

Why not take a seat ? This thread is on the question of 'Mozart a Fraud' ? and if you want to examine this issue you've come to the right place. If not, go back to the main forum and select something else. Shall I help you pack your suitcase ? But if you post again without making a contribution I will suggest that the Moderators do this for you.

[Gurn Blanston]

I think rather than consensus, what we would like to see is some rationalization. Particularly concerning your cries for some book questioning the provenance of 'Mozart's' music. The fact that no one knows of one (I doubt there is one) doesn't buttress what you are doing, Robert. In fact it does just the opposite. There isn't one because there is no need for one. Oh, I know, you believe there IS a need for one, and that's all well and good. But if there had been a need for one, it would have been filled long ago. Your frequently stated concept that all musicologists are sheep, part of the flock making up the "Mozart Industry" simply flies in the face of human behavior. When you see guns drawn over such silliness as whether Mozart actually did play the viola, or whether his eyes were blue or brown, do you really thin that people of that level of argumentativeness would hesitate to take sides over whether he actually wrote the music, if there were any room for doubt at all? Pull the other one...

One aside at this point in the proceedings, aimed at all posters on this thread; let's cool down a bit and keep this discussion within civil boundaries. I'm having so much fun here that it would be a pity to have to lock it down, but if it degenerates any further into the Great Pit of Namecalling, that will be its sorry fate.

[karlhenning]

(* munches popcorn *)

[Gurn Blanston]

(* munches popcorn *)

Hey, don't Bogart that popcorn, my friend,
Pass it over here, again....

[Joe_Campbell]

shit

Fascinating. You know nothing about me yet deem me stupid. So, robnewman, are all those who don't believe what you've "proposed" in this thread stupid?

Is anyone who thinks that Mozart actually wrote his own music stupid as well?

[Herman]

One aside at this point in the proceedings, aimed at all posters on this thread; let's cool down a bit and keep this discussion within civil boundaries. I'm having so much fun here that it would be a pity to have to lock it down, but if it degenerates any further into the Great Pit of Namecalling, that will be its sorry fate.

You're having fun? Really? I think this is a truly lamentable topic and no good at all. The informational value is nil.

Unlikely as it may seem, there are people (see Snypprr contribution) who actually think they can 'learn' something from this thread, and thus ingest an unhealthy dose of negativity about Mozart's music. And then there are tons of lurkers we don't even know about. You don't realize how seductive conspiracy theories are for the undereducated. I don't think GMG is for deliberately spreading false information.

And indeed, the tone is very unpleasant. Mr Newman prefers to treat everybody who doesn't agree, or who gets impatient after 55 pages and not a shred of the evidence requested, like a stupid boor, and the behaviour vice versa is not too pretty at times either.

[karlhenning]

Fascinating. You know nothing about me yet deem me stupid.

Consider this bizarre pièce, a mélange of all his customary cheap gambits (sidetracking the point, misrepresenting quotes, ad hominem, &c.):

A COMIC OPERA IN ONE ACT

'THE PROFESSOR AND HIS EXPERTISE'

Featuring that well known virtuoso and expert on the life, career and musical achievements of Herr W.A. Mozart. 'Everything you've heard is true'.

Scene 1

Enter Prof. Karl Henning (agitated) -

KH - 'And I say again this nonsense must be stopped, since he, that Newman, has presented no evidence'

(Pupils applaud wildly)

'And what did he reply ? - He even offered to send me, free of charge, a book on 'Le Nozze di Figaro' - a book which, if I was to read its contents, might corrupt me and then you, dear students. And I... (tears now flowing freely) have only the education of you, my dear pupils, as my first priority'

Pupil 1 - We love you Professor Henning !!  (further applause)

KH - And I love you too, dear pupils. So much so that at the next book burning festival I will grant you all a seat near the fire.

(More wild applause)

KH - Now, as I was saying, when Mozart wrote, from memory, an entire opera before breakfast, and when he composed a string of symphonies before lunch... and when....... when he was gripped by the creative urge to write six concertos and three masses... and when......

Pupils - (starry eyed) - How we love you Professor Henning !!

(Musical interlude with sustained violins, oboes and clarinets leading to Cornflakes ad )

This "need" that he has to fantasize whole contexts for those with whom he argues, just an extension of his ridiculous speculations on "the Real 'Mozart'."  Sad, sad, sad.

[Joe_Campbell]

I didn't know you were such a celebrity, Karl!

[robnewman]

Thanks Gurn,

You write -

I think rather than consensus, what we would like to see is some rationalization. Particularly concerning your cries for some book questioning the provenance of 'Mozart's' music. The fact that no one knows of one (I doubt there is one) doesn't buttress what you are doing, Robert. In fact it does just the opposite. There isn't one because there is no need for one. Oh, I know, you believe there IS a need for one, and that's all well and good. But if there had been a need for one, it would have been filled long ago. Your frequently stated concept that all musicologists are sheep, part of the flock making up the "Mozart Industry" simply flies in the face of human behavior. When you see guns drawn over such silliness as whether Mozart actually did play the viola, or whether his eyes were blue or brown, do you really thin that people of that level of argumentativeness would hesitate to take sides over whether he actually wrote the music, if there were any room for doubt at all? Pull the other one. ''

OK, let's rationalise this as you suggest. The facts are as follows -

1. In the entire history of Mozart studies (that is, from, let us say, from the time of the first Mozart biography by F. Niemetscheck in 1797/8 until the present day) we have seen Mozart's musical achievements being massively and fraudulently exaggerated. A simple and plain fact. This confirmed by even the most conservative sources such as, for example, editors of the various versions of Koechel. A fact recognised by the Mozarteum in Salzburg itself.  So that literally hundreds of musical works once published and performed in the name of 'Mozart' are today recognised NOT to be by Mozart. True, yes ? That's fact number 1.

2. Can you, Gurn, show an example of similar scale from the life/career of any other famous composer in the entire history of western music ?

3. Now, if this huge musical misattribution is now being recognised, even by 'conservatives' within Mozart studies, we are indisputably right to say misattribution and falsehood is, by definition, a major factor in Mozart's musical reputation. Though we may disagree whether it is huge, gigantic or whatever. We cannot deny, however, there are good grounds to call his reputation as a composer in to question.

4. We have documented examples of 'Mozart's' name being given to works he never composed. Two examples from Constanze Mozart blatantly trying to publish works in 'Mozart's' name just for starters. We have too the published refutation of Mozart's authorship of the 'Requiem' (KV626) by music editors such as Gottfried Weber, as still another example. We have, in fact, literally hundreds of anomalies and contradictions, even amongst works still accepted as being 'Mozart's'. This too is an indisputable fact.

We are able to say, therefore, that in the case of Mozart, misattribution AND falsehood/fakery/error are already recognised to be major factors in Mozart's musical reputation. This extending even in to the present time. A recent speech given in London by the current Koechel editor admits the same. So there is nothing controversial in this. It's plain fact.

As far as name-calling is concerned, yes. Note that it always starts with those who have never studied this subject beyond the standard mythology. And this occurring within a context which (you agree) consists of no book yet being published which examines the fakery, falsehood, and exaggeration of Mozart's career and the rise of his reputation to iconic status. 200 years of whitewash, in fact.

On these grounds alone a modern study of Mozart, free from dogmatic repetition of the standard story is long, long overdue. Textbooks repeat other textbooks. It's one of the plainest and most dogmatic areas of academic study in the entire history of musicology. But that's not even under dispute in Mozart's case. People just keep quoting one another as if it gives legitimacy to what they are saying. Until a bubble is created of ever expanding size and of many colours, which others, in turn, quote, and so it goes on. This is not fair. It's not accurate. In fact, it's corporate mythology.

To examine, once again, the much suppressed facts surrounding Mozart's life and career has provoked such hostility we can and must wonder if dogmatists believe their own dogmas. A sure sign that 'Mozart studies' so-called, are oblivious to fair and reasonable criticism. And so it proves to be as we examine this issue deeper.

[robnewman]

Fascinating. You know nothing about me yet deem me stupid. So, robnewman, are all those who don't believe what you've "proposed" in this thread stupid?

Is anyone who thinks that Mozart actually wrote his own music stupid as well?

Joe Campbell,

I know that you are hostile. I know you have provided no input on this thread. And I know that you don't like this thread. I know you are insulting. And I know you've not read very much about Mozart. Is that enough ?

The stupidity comes at the point where 'Mozart studies' contain no criticisms of the stories on which it is based. Where you cannot name a single work which does so in any detail. And where you don't even know the massive misattributions that are today a plain fact of musical history. All of these things should have taught you a lesson. But it seems you have learned nothing.

[robnewman]

I didn't know you were such a celebrity, Karl!

Professor Karl Henning IS a Mozart celebrity. He is the first man in over 200 years to argue that Wolfgang Mozart learned composition from his father Leopold and, simultaneously, in the same breath, to deny that he ever said such a thing !  This verbal artistry, this depth of learning, this ability to call 'black white' and 'white black' comes only from those few professors who are steeped in the most profound study of music and its history.  

[Joe_Campbell]

shit

I'm not being hostile. Just answer the question, and while you're at it, answer all the others that somehow flew past you in your attempts to respond to every_single_post in this thread. I don't have to be an expert on fruit to spot a bad apple.

Karl IS a celebrity. He is the first man in over 200 years to argue that Wolfgang Mozart learned composition from his father Leopold and, simultaneously, to deny he that ever said such a thing !  This artistry, this depth of learning, this ability to call black white and white black comes only from those few professors who are steeped in the most profound study of music and its history.

Karl never said such a thing. I read the exchange and the context of his comment, and you are in error in your intepretation, but why let that stop you this time?

[robnewman]

I'm not being hostile. Just answer the question, and while you're at it, answer all the others that somehow flew past you in your attempts to respond to every_single_post in this thread. I don't have to be an expert on fruit to spot a bad apple.Karl never said such a thing. I read the exchange and the context of his comment, and you are in error in your intepretation, but why let that stop you this time?

Who are you kidding ? Yourself ? Prof. Karl Henning said Leopold Mozart taught his son Wolfgang composition. He said so several times. Right here on this thread. And everyone can see he did so. Except you, of course !

Joe Campbell, here is your moment to shine - (drum roll)...........cresc.

Q. Did Leopold Mozart teach music composition to his son Wolfgang ?

[DavidW]

Newman, I shouldn't have fun at your expense.  I apologize for calling you a liar.

[robnewman]

Newman, I shouldn't have fun at your expense.  I apologize for calling you a liar.

DavidW,

Thank you for this. It says a lot about your integrity and your character. Thank you and best wishes.

With complete respect and regards

R Newman