Cato's Grammar Grumble

[Ken B]

Thanks. I suspected that See is actually a contraction of Seat and has got nothing to do with the verb.

It comes from the Latin, sedes.

[Florestan]

It comes from the Latin, sedes.

Scio. 

[Karl Henning]

I suppose people just may ask that.

[Cato]

I suppose people just may ask that.

Lemony Persnickety?

[zamyrabyrd]

Has anyone seen this monstrosity: "healthyish"?

"Healthy" when meaning "healthful" is bad enough, but who has the nerve to make an adjective into an adverb and even worse, to use it as an adjective?

[Florestan]

"Healthy" when meaning "healthful" is bad enough

What's so wrong about "healthy", I wonder? 

[zamyrabyrd]

What's so wrong about "healthy", I wonder? 

When I was in school, there was a distinction made between something health giving (healthful) and a state of health (healthy). I don't know why the first term went out of common use.

[Jo498]

Maybe because it is strange to think of health as something residing in the fresh fruit and not in the body?
Multiple meanings for "healthy" are so common in many languages that it has been a standard example for a certain kind of multiple meaning/equivocation/homonymy since Plato and Aristotle!
(I fully agree that "healthyish" sounds and looks monstrous and seems also superfluous.)

[zamyrabyrd]

By way of precision, I still prefer the distinction made between promoting a state of health and it being already achieved.

[Cato]

By way of precision, I still prefer the distinction made between promoting a state of health and it being already achieved.

Good for you! 0:)

The following is true (sad, but true).  Names have been eliminated to protect the innocent.

A supposed History teacher at a local high school gave a test with the following howlers.  Usually things like this come from the students.

These came from the teacher!

"What was the name given to Hitler's blonde harried Germans?"

(True or False)

"Fascism is more concerned with ones individual rights then the groups concerns."

And for general incomprehensibility:

"A major reason for the failures of the League of Nations were no force consequences to disobey orders." 

My favorite:

"What was the German name for Hitler's lightening war?" 

And you thought World War II was one of the "heavy" wars!

Not one word about Stalin's pact with Hitler, or the invasion by Stalin of Poland and the Baltic states from the East.

Anyway, I am sure the man is a fine coach! 

[zamyrabyrd]

The following is true (sad, but true).  Names have been eliminated to protect the innocent.
A supposed History teacher at a local high school gave a test with the following howlers.  Usually things like this come from the students.
These came from the teacher!
"What was the name given to Hitler's blonde harried Germans?"
(True or False)
"Fascism is more concerned with ones individual rights then the groups concerns."
And for general incomprehensibility:
"A major reason for the failures of the League of Nations were no force consequences to disobey orders." 
My favorite:
"What was the German name for Hitler's lightening war?" 
And you thought World War II was one of the "heavy" wars!
Not one word about Stalin's pact with Hitler, or the invasion by Stalin of Poland and the Baltic states from the East.
Anyway, I am sure the man is a fine coach! 

Lighten up a cigarette, right?
Maybe the guy is not a native English speaker? 
My high school English teacher was so devoted, she could not sleep if there were any uncorrected dangling participles in homework she may have missed.
Because of her, I still have a hard time with splitting infinitives.
Saying or writing them still makes me feel guilty, or at least uncomfortable...

ZB

[Cato]

Lighten up a cigarette, right?
Maybe the guy is not a native English speaker? 
My high school English teacher was so devoted, she could not sleep if there were any uncorrected dangling participles in homework she may have missed.
Because of her, I still have a hard time with splitting infinitives.
Saying or writing them still makes me feel guilty, or at least uncomfortable...

ZB

Concerning the teacher:   Unfortunately    no, he is an American and has no excuse for those errors, and I should mention that there were easily a dozen more in spelling and punctuation!

Teachers are supposed to make students uncomfortable, because they are young, ignorant, and these days are much too proud of themselves. They need to grow up and wise up!

[Karl Henning]

"Did you misplace this modifier, sir?"

[zamyrabyrd]

Scio. 

Just curious, do you say "Skio" or "Shio"?
Maybe Cato can enlighten us as to the current Latin pronunciation.
So many arguments go back and forth in choirs.
I do prefer the Italian as per my family origin.

ZB

[zamyrabyrd]

"Did you misplace this modifier, sir?"

"Who modified the modifier?"

[Cato]

Just curious, do you say "Skio" or "Shio"?
Maybe Cato can enlighten us as to the current Latin pronunciation.
So many arguments go back and forth in choirs.
I do prefer the Italian as per my family origin.

ZB

A classical pronunciation uses a "K" sound for any "c" in a word.  The "ch" pronunciation before certain vowels (as in "chin") is more medieval, as Latin changes into Italian.

[zamyrabyrd]

A classical pronunciation uses a "K" sound for any "c" in a word.  The "ch" pronunciation before certain vowels (as in "chin") is more medieval, as Latin changes into Italian.

But you wouldn't say "s-ch-io" but "sh-io" in Italian pronunciation of Latin? Right, or wrong?

[Jo498]

There is also a "germanized" pronunciation (one will hear in quite a few recordings of Latin church music by German language choirs) that would have "s-tsio". Basically, the c's (that were all hard "k" in classical Latin) become "ts" before "i", "e" and "ae" and double cc becomes "k-ts"
E.g. "ak-tsendit" instead of "ashendit" where classically it would have been "akkendit" although I admit that I do not know how Latin would have been pronounced in the 4th century AD (when the Nicene Creed was formulated); very probably the classical pronunciation had already yielded to different "local" changes by then. (I recently read that by the 8th/9th century old French had departed sufficiently from late Latin/pre-French that people would not understand priests using the current version of ecclesiastical Latin)
Certainly no church choir would have pronounced Latin classically between the high middle ages and today. They would use local pronunciation (and the French one that can be heard on some recordings of Charpentier and other 17th century composers) sounds quite strange to my ears but I trust that it is the way they did it in French catholic churches). So, if one wants historically accuracy the italianate pronunciation is probably wrong for stuff like Bach's b minor, probably also for Beethoven and Haydn. With so many italian singers around in 18th century Germany and Austria, I am not sure although I very much doubt that German/Austrian church choirs would have used that pronunciation. Latin was the main subject for those choir boys in school and I see no indication why they would have used the italianate way in the choir and the germanized in class. However, as most seem to agree that the italianate way is easier to sing, I don't see a reason why international choirs should try to emulate the germanized way. But neither is there a good reason for germanophone choirs to use the italianate way.

[zamyrabyrd]

There is also a "germanized" pronunciation (one will hear in quite a few recordings of Latin church music by German language choirs) that would have "s-tsio". Basically, the c's (that were all hard "k" in classical Latin) become "ts" before "i", "e" and "ae" and double cc becomes "k-ts". E.g. "ak-tsendit" instead of "ashendit" where classically it would have been "akkendit"...

"Ak-tsendit" (accendit) is really hard to sing, a tongue twister, as the consonants go from back to front, the top of the palate, then through the lips.
There one German choir conductor who tried to impose hard consonants on locals used to Italian pronunciation and were very loathe to change (an understatement).

ZB

[Jo498]

As I said, I also think it is nonsense to make a choir that is already used to some pronunciation change it. But I see no problem if germanophone choirs (or maybe also some Dutch or Scandinavian, I have no idea which consonants they's prefer) use the germanized pronunciation. (I admit that I personally dislike the French pronunciation.) Except for some cases, e.g. Verdi's Requiem (and this was also sung with germanized Latin in 1960s Germany/Austria) it is not really a right/wrong question. Why should e.g. an American choir singing for American audiences in 2017 try to mimick the germanized Latin pronunciation only because Bach would probably have been used to it?
I all for trying to pronounce, e.g. German in a Bach cantata as correctly as possible. But doing germanized Latin seems a waste of time.