Cato's Grammar Grumble

[Opus106]

You mean, people only say it when travelling at speeds close to the speed of light?

More like talking at speeds close to the speed of light.

[Elgarian]

More like talking at speeds close to the speed of light.

Well Navneeth, we can test your hypothesis. When people talk to me at excessively high speed, I definitely notice that time is affected in my reference frame: they seem to be talking for a lot longer than they really are. I think that clinches it.

[Opus106]

Bravo! I guess it's only a matter of months before we receive phone calls from the Swedish Academy.

[Karl Henning]

. . . My chief spoken example of this (I mean, the one in my mind as I work through this knotty philosopho-poetico-linguistical problem) comes from Scotty in Star Trek 4 . . . .

Errr, Scotty is your example? A Scot trying to speak British English using an American pronunciation in a movie? You know, I'm in a good mood after reading this!

You gents remind me that I just watched an episode from The Twilight Zone (season 4, "Valley of the Shadow," first aired 17 Jan 1963) in which Jas Doohan plays a minor role.  I didn't recognize him . . . wasn't until the final credits were rolling that I saw his name (one good reason to hang on and watch the end credits for these TV-on-DVD "re-runs").  I hit the previous scene button a couple of times, and sure enough, there he appeared!

The word aluminum did not figure in his lines there, or we should have a comparison . . . .

[Karl Henning]

Any light on cock a snook, Alan? : ) You know that phrase is going places, when you read it in liner notes for a Vivaldi CD . . . .

[mc ukrneal]

Well, it takes forever to roll off the tongue only in the same way as it takes a brook to bubble its way lightly over rocks, or for a sparrow to flit between branches. But a-loo-mi-num just drops like a stone (or never gets off the ground in the first place).

Let's consider how Wordsworth would have tackled it. 'I wandered lonely, a lump of aluminum ...' just doesn't work, does it? It sounds like walking in lead boots. Contrast with the ripplingly expressive 'I wandered lonely, like aluminium ...'

Need I say more?

A lump of aluminium doesn't sound any better than a lump of aluminum. I think the issue is still in pronunciation. The pitch is still declining on the num. So it would sound like a loo muh num.

[mc ukrneal]

so I thought I'd give you an easy target so you could think you'd shot me down, and therefore not feel so bad.

Very gentlemanly of you... A true Elgarian! 

[chasmaniac]

A lump of aluminium doesn't sound any better than a lump of aluminum. I think the issue is still in pronunciation. The pitch is still declining on the num. So it would sound like a loo muh num.

I think the trick with aluminium is palatalizing the lu as lyu. That what gives it the pinky finger classiness. I'm an old prole, so I stick with aluminum.

[mc ukrneal]

Maybe you will find this amusing....
http://www.youtube.com/v/m2mt6BB1798

[chasmaniac]

I'm amused. 

But I bet she isn't!

[Elgarian]

Maybe you will find this amusing....

Here we are, deeply enmeshed in the darkest recesses of philosopho-linguistic analysis, and you speak of ... amusement?

[Looks around questioningly, with shoulders shrugged upwards, arms slightly outstretched, palms uppermost.]

[Elgarian]

Any light on cock a snook, Alan? : )[/font]

Is the snook an aluminium one? And when exactly is it to be cocked? At the weekend?

[mc ukrneal]

Is the snook an aluminium one? And when exactly is it to be cocked? At the weekend?

First, I found this interesting: from phrases.org.uk:
Cock a snook

Meaning

A derisive gesture.

Origin

In trying to explain the origin of 'Cock a snook' it would be helpful to know what a snook is. Unfortunately we don't really. There is a species of fish called snook, but it isn't that, unless there's a form of derisive gesture that I've had too sheltered an upbringing to be aware of. A snook is also a promontory of jutting out land. That could have something to do with the gesture as it does involve sticking fingers out. Apart from this single phrase, snook isn't a word you would expect to hear very often. It is sometimes reported to be derived from snout, as in thumbing one's nose. That's possible but, although snout and snook are somewhat similar, why didn't they just 'cock a snout'. That term doesn't appear to be recorded.

The general understanding of what's meant by 'cock a snook' is the spread hand with thumb on the nose, preferably with crossed eyes, waggling fingers and any other annoying gesticulation that comes to mind at the time. It's what the Americans call 'the five-fingered salute'.

The use of cock is also difficult to explain. Again it might refer to the sticking out and turning up of the fingers. That would be in line with the term cocked-hat in which the brim is turned up jauntily. It could also be a reference to the shape of a cock's comb, which is rather like the shape of the gesture. It took some time for the gesture as we now know it to be established - various other forms were used in the past.

The first reference I can find that mentions the phrase is Wynne's Diary, 1791:


"They cock snooks at one on every occasion."

That gives no clue as to what was meant by the term. The next time we see it is in Augustus Hare's The story of my life, 1879:


"If I put my hands so ... (cutting a snooks), they might reproach me very much indeed."

This provides little more clarity. Is 'cutting a snooks' even the same thing? Then, in The Times, 1904, we have "The young monkey puts his tongue in his cheek and cocks a snook at you.", which makes no reference to any sort of hand gesture.

All in all, this is an odd phrase and we know precious little about its origin.

[Karl Henning]

I think the trick with aluminium is palatalizing the lu as lyu. That what gives it the pinky finger classiness. I'm an old prole, so I stick with aluminum.

And what of those of us who palatalize that syllable in aluminum, hmmm? ; )

[Karl Henning]

First, I found this interesting: from phrases.org.uk:
Cock a snook

Meaning

A derisive gesture.

Origin

In trying to explain the origin of 'Cock a snook' it would be helpful to know what a snook is. Unfortunately we don't really. There is a species of fish called snook, but it isn't that, unless there's a form of derisive gesture that I've had too sheltered an upbringing to be aware of. A snook is also a promontory of jutting out land. That could have something to do with the gesture as it does involve sticking fingers out. Apart from this single phrase, snook isn't a word you would expect to hear very often. It is sometimes reported to be derived from snout, as in thumbing one's nose. That's possible but, although snout and snook are somewhat similar, why didn't they just 'cock a snout'. That term doesn't appear to be recorded.

The general understanding of what's meant by 'cock a snook' is the spread hand with thumb on the nose, preferably with crossed eyes, waggling fingers and any other annoying gesticulation that comes to mind at the time. It's what the Americans call 'the five-fingered salute'.

The use of cock is also difficult to explain. Again it might refer to the sticking out and turning up of the fingers. That would be in line with the term cocked-hat in which the brim is turned up jauntily. It could also be a reference to the shape of a cock's comb, which is rather like the shape of the gesture. It took some time for the gesture as we now know it to be established - various other forms were used in the past.

The first reference I can find that mentions the phrase is Wynne's Diary, 1791:


"They cock snooks at one on every occasion."

That gives no clue as to what was meant by the term. The next time we see it is in Augustus Hare's The story of my life, 1879:


"If I put my hands so ... (cutting a snooks), they might reproach me very much indeed."

This provides little more clarity. Is 'cutting a snooks' even the same thing? Then, in The Times, 1904, we have "The young monkey puts his tongue in his cheek and cocks a snook at you.", which makes no reference to any sort of hand gesture.

All in all, this is an odd phrase and we know precious little about its origin.

Thanks! The mystery enlarges . . . .

[mc ukrneal]

Thanks! The mystery enlarges . . . .

Here is the image they had too, for those who are visual:

[Elgarian]

A lump of aluminium doesn't sound any better than a lump of aluminum.

Nice try, but that's merely sleight of hand. The problem there lies in the questionable use of the word 'lump' in both contexts, and the issue is one of inappropriate association. 'A lump of aluminum' is poetically effective in its gloomy lumpenness, because aluminum has the same kind of deadening sound as lump. But one simply wouldn't associate aluminium with lump. One would be searching instead for lullulating words like 'liminary'. So one might think of airy expressions like 'a line of aluminium linking loops'. It's a matter of judging a word by the company it keeps, really.

[Karl Henning]

Sweet and lode.

[mc ukrneal]

Nice try, but that's merely sleight of hand. The problem there lies in the questionable use of the word 'lump' in both contexts, and the issue is one of inappropriate association. 'A lump of aluminum' is poetically effective in its gloomy lumpenness, because aluminum has the same kind of deadening sound as lump. But one simply wouldn't associate aluminium with lump. One would be searching instead for lullulating words like 'liminary'. So one might think of airy expressions like 'a line of aluminium linking loops'. It's a matter of judging a word by the company it keeps, really.

Ah, but your poetic example is equally flawed as the meter and flow of a poem are significant to it's success. The two words have different numbers of syllables. We cannot substitute one for the other and maintain the integrity of the poem. In any case, neither is commonly used in poetry (for which I think we are both grateful).

And I hope Cato doesn't mind we've commandeered his thread for a bit...

[mc ukrneal]

That site is interesting. Here's another (having nothing to do with the previous discussion):

Drop-dead Gorgeous

Meaning

Breathtakingly beautiful.

Origin

"Drop-dead gorgeous" seems to have been with us since just 1985. A piece about Michelle Pfeiffer in Time in February of that year says:


"Trim, smart and drop-dead gorgeous, Pfeiffer has been nibbling at stardom since her stints in Grease II and Scarface."

The phrase struck a chord and there are many references to it in newspapers and journals from very soon after that.

It didn't arrive out of the blue. The term "drop dead", meaning excellent had been around since at least 1962. In The New York Herald-Tribune, January 1962, we have:


"Fashions from Florence not drop-dead. For almost the first time in history Simonetta failed to deliver an absolutely drop-dead collection."

It got picked up as an intensifier for various things, as here from the Washington Post, July 1980:


"For drop dead chic food, Harborplace has a sushi and tempura bar."

Of course, "drop dead" has also been used as a term demonstrating dislike for some time. This originated in the US in the 1930s.

Phrases tend to be coined to deal with things that people engage with frequently or consider important. There are hundreds of phrases to do with topics like God, money, sex etc. It's hardly surprising that death scores highly too and that 'dead' is one of the words that appears in many English idioms. Here's a selection that begin with a, b or c - there are many more:


As dead as a dodo
As dead as a doornail
As dead as mutton
At the dead of night
Back from the dead
Better dead than red
Brain dead
Bring out your dead
Chivalry is not dead
Cut out the dead wood

The use of the word dead in English idioms is an example of how difficult a language it is to learn for non-native speakers. That's perhaps what could be expected from a language that has nine different ways to pronounce 'ough':


through - oo
though - o
thought - awt
tough - uff
plough - ow
thorough - uh
cough - off
hiccough - up
lough - ock

Even supposing someone understood the word 'dead' (and there are at least 31 meanings for dead just as an adjective), that doesn't help in understanding idioms. These rely on a knowledge of context that goes beyond the dictionary; for example, how is it that people who are "dead from the neck up" or "dead to the world", can be alive and well? Why is a "dead shot" to be admired when a "dead loss" isn't? Go into an English pub at closing time and you'll be asked, "are those drinks dead"? You might even hear someone claiming to be "in dead earnest".

If you learned your English as a first language, be thankful. If not, and when someone meets you they say "drop-dead gorgeous", don't be offended.