Bruckner 8 debate anyone??

[Lethevich]

Tintner's cycle still remains pretty strong, even now the hype about it has long since died down. The 8th is the only real dud (and even that has its supporters). As Renfield says, the 9th is a fine outsider pick, the 6th and 5th decent, the 4th and 7th as good as they can be with such ridiculous amounts of competition from superior ensembles. The 00-3rd are simply excellent, by any standard.

[imperfection]

Does anybody have this?



How is the sound compared with the CD version on DG? It's the same performance AFAIK.

[jlaurson]

Does anybody have this?



How is the sound compared with the CD version on DG? It's the same performance AFAIK.

I only have second-hand information, but was told that it sounded easily superior to the CD (and at a lower price, at that). But of course that presumes that the equipment connected to the TV is as good/the same as your stereo.

[imperfection]

I only have second-hand information, but was told that it sounded easily superior to the CD (and at a lower price, at that). But of course that presumes that the equipment connected to the TV is as good/the same as your stereo.

That's very encouraging, thanks.

[Sean]

King

I learnt the Eighth from the Karajan '58 as on your list- it has an almost unmatchable slow movement (in the Haas edition, like his late VPO but unlike the BPO digital); the sound's a bit greyed though.

[drogulus]

    Sean, the '58 is the EMI, right? The Adagio is tremendous. If the sound was better it would rival the later VPO if not surpass it.

    The Tintner 8th is not going to make it into the top tier, though it picks up after an unpromising start. I do like the Nowak Edition differences in the 1st movement until near the end, where the dying fadeout is much better. The Nowak Scherzo doesn't appeal to me at all.

[Haffner]

    Sean, the '58 is the EMI, right? The Adagio is tremendous. If the sound was better it would rival the later VPO if not surpass it.

    The Tintner 8th is not going to make it into the top tier, though it picks up after an unpromising start. I do like the Nowak Edition differences in the 1st movement until near the end where, the dying fadeout is much better. The Nowak Scherzo doesn't appeal to me at all.

The '58 EMI is astounding. I guess I just have a problem with the Tintner 8th, to each his own.

[Sean]

Hi drogulus, good to read your thoughts similar to mine and that this great music obviously means something to you- it's key repertory for me and among my life-changing experiences. I remember mentioning the '58 to Calaf on the long Bruckner thread and he was a bit dismissive, largely because of the somewhat dusty sound. Yes, it's on EMI- I bought the double LP set in my mid-teens, the cover I remember being of an appropriate painting called The Torrent, by whoever.

Karajan is at his very finest in the adagio, indescribably wrapt and inward and building up to that intense phrasing towards the end which I don't think is matched by the late VPO- that's a peculiar recording in some ways, judged to perfection but an example of Karajan's overbearing control: in the EMI it breathes a bit more without losing any flow. The BPO on DG is midway between these but uses the Nowak text with a cut in the slow movement- but without the notes on the harp hanging on their own at the end of that climatic phrase, which bothers Robert Simpson...

Hi Andy- I've heard good things about the Tintner but haven't heard it I'm afraid. Sean

[Haffner]

Hi Andy- I've heard good things about the Tintner but haven't heard it I'm afraid. Sean

Get the Tintner Bruckner "Nullte" through and including the 7th. You'll like 'em!

[drogulus]

    Sean, your comparison of the EMI with the later DG describes my own reactions. I'm not disparaging the later one, I just think the EMI is just about as good as it gets, SQ notwithstanding.

[Sergeant Rock]

Nice to see praise for Karajan's EMI Eighth (I prefer all his EMI Bruckner to his remakes for DG). Deryck Cooke, in the Gramophone, had this to say about it when the stereo version was released in, I think, 1961 (the mono version came out in 1958):

"I find the performance, as a performance, magnificent; it reveals the symphony as a work of epic grandeur, a vast, slow-moving, richly-coloured pageant of awe-inspiring beauty. I have never heard Bruckner sound so glorious before."


Sarge

[Renfield]

[Re Haitink/DS]
That's a stunner, the sheer sound of the orchestra is quite something I didn't find the performance overall to be gripping enough to be a top choice, though...

Those were my exact impressions. (I finally heard it earlier today.)

I also think the first two movements were noticeably more effective than the last two.

Thanks again for the uploads.

[jlaurson]

There is yet another Jochum's late live 8th, this time with Concertgebouw from Amsterdam. I do have it, though my recollection of it is somewhat dim, but think Lilas holds it in very high esteem.


Tah 169 - Bruckner : Symphony No. 8, Eugen Jochum
Concertgebouw Orchestra, Amsterdam - Live 26.IX.1984

...but as we know the first rule in hi-fi collecting: The more difficult a performance is to get, the better the interpretation. It's a linear incline that cumulates at impossible/mythical. 

[Sean]

Nice to see praise for Karajan's EMI Eighth (I prefer all his EMI Bruckner to his remakes for DG). Deryck Cooke, in the Gramophone, had this to say about it when the stereo version was released in, I think, 1961 (the mono version came out in 1958):

"I find the performance, as a performance, magnificent; it reveals the symphony as a work of epic grandeur, a vast, slow-moving, richly-coloured pageant of awe-inspiring beauty. I have never heard Bruckner sound so glorious before."


Sarge

Thanks for digging that out!! Those were the days!! Great musicologists writing reviews; more than anything else, today there are more pop culture absolutely-know-nothing radio announcers passing off utter ignorant drivel as music criticism.

[Sean]

I also bought the Karajan Fourth on EMI (Classics for pleasure).

[Sergeant Rock]

I also bought the Karajan Fourth on EMI (Classics for pleasure).

Excellent. It's my favorite among the sixteen Fourths I own. No one, not even Karajan himself in his DG remake, does the chorale in the first movement development with more intense majesty. He transports me to a different realm of existence in those few moments...I swear 

Sarge

[drogulus]

Nice to see praise for Karajan's EMI Eighth (I prefer all his EMI Bruckner to his remakes for DG). Deryck Cooke, in the Gramophone, had this to say about it when the stereo version was released in, I think, 1961 (the mono version came out in 1958):

"I find the performance, as a performance, magnificent; it reveals the symphony as a work of epic grandeur, a vast, slow-moving, richly-coloured pageant of awe-inspiring beauty. I have never heard Bruckner sound so glorious before."


Sarge

    The recording was made in '57, so '58 and '61 sounds right.

   

[DarkAngel]

HVKs Bruckner 8th performances:







1) BPO/EMI   1957   86:57
2) BPO/DG   1975   82:20
3) VPO/DG   1988   82:49

Interesting that many people like the older 1957 Karajan 8th, while very good by any measure I prefer his later versions with his final VPO version being the very best, perhaps given an unfair advantage because of the great sound quality acheived by DG.

There is a pretty clear change in style for Karajan, the 1957 is broader paced with a more restrained majesty, epic and beautifully shaped but compared to his later versions the spires are slightly rounded off, a more earthbound version. Fans of this style will naturally like the Giulini/DG and Wand/BPO/DG versions

The 1975 has slightly more dramatic contrast and power, more forward momentum, a taller cathedral is built with sharper spires, Karajan spreads his wings more here.

The final 1988 version takes the same architecture and style developed in 1975 and adds some subtle refinements, combining power and beauty in a harmonius union elevating to ever higher levels, just before his death HVK came the closest yet to fully realizing Bruckners vision in sound.

Interested in hearing some comments why people prefer the 1957 version to the 1988 version.............perhaps I am missing something 

[Keemun]

Tintner's cycle still remains pretty strong, even now the hype about it has long since died down. The 8th is the only real dud (and even that has its supporters). As Renfield says, the 9th is a fine outsider pick, the 6th and 5th decent, the 4th and 7th as good as they can be with such ridiculous amounts of competition from superior ensembles. The 00-3rd are simply excellent, by any standard.

I'm in the minority, but I really didn't care for Tintner's Bruckner.  To be fair, I only have Symphonies Nos. 4-7.  These were my introduction to Bruckner and I credit them with part of my difficulty in appreciating Bruckner's music.  Perhaps one of these days I'll give Tintner another try, but whenever I start to listen to one of his recordings I find it unsatisfying and give up.   

[Sean]

HVKs Bruckner 8th performances:







1) BPO/EMI   1957   86:57
2) BPO/DG   1975   82:20
3) VPO/DG   1988   82:49

Interesting that many people like the older 1957 Karajan 8th, while very good by any measure I prefer his later versions with his final VPO version being the very best, perhaps given an unfair advantage because of the great sound quality acheived by DG.

There is a pretty clear change in style for Karajan, the 1957 is broader paced with a more restrained majesty, epic and beautifully shaped but compared to his later versions the spires are slightly rounded off, a more earthbound version. Fans of this style will naturally like the Giulini/DG and Wand/BPO/DG versions

The 1975 has slightly more dramatic contrast and power, more forward momentum, a taller cathedral is built with sharper spires, Karajan spreads his wings more here.

The final 1988 version takes the same architecture and style developed in 1975 and adds some subtle refinements, combining power and beauty in a harmonius union elevating to ever higher levels, just before his death HVK came the closest yet to fully realizing Bruckners vision in sound.

Interested in hearing some comments why people prefer the 1957 version to the 1988 version.............perhaps I am missing something 

Hi DarkAngel!

Someone else who knows these recordings!!! Great stuff.

I do find the VPO a peculiar experience, similar to his later Mahler Ninth: the interpretation on the intellectual level is near-perfect but there is a very strange sense of imperiousness and imposition that goes beyond serving the music- not in a blatant way of course but there's an element of calculation that doesn't infect his earlier work. I haven't fully worked this out but there's something not totally right...