Bruckner 8 debate anyone??

[eyeresist]

I also bought the Karajan Fourth on EMI (Classics for pleasure).

This is my reference version. (Didn't know it was on Cfp.)

Keemun, your post gives me the courage to admit I've only heard Tintner in the 4th, and found it slow and dull.

[DarkAngel]

Hi DarkAngel!

Someone else who knows these recordings!!! Great stuff.

I do find the VPO a peculiar experience, similar to his later Mahler Ninth: the interpretation on the intellectual level is near-perfect but there is a very strange sense of imperiousness and imposition that goes beyond serving the music- not in a blatant way of course but there's an element of calculation that doesn't infect his earlier work. I haven't fully worked this out but there's something not totally right...

Yes you are hearing the subtle differences I am, but to me they are a confidence and deep communion that HVK projects adding extra contrast and depth to the sound for 1988 version, especially notice this in the brass fanfares which seem more blazing and soaring, the vienna strings have a golden Brucknerian glow that deeply penetrate the soul and lift the spirit.......just the ultimate refinement of HVKs Bruckner vision, deeply moving on many levels as HVK faces his mortality.

The final recording by HVK of VPO Bruckner 7 for me is the greatest Bruckner recording ever by HVK or anyone else for that matter.............

[jlaurson]

The final recording by HVK of VPO Bruckner 7 for me is the greatest Bruckner recording ever by HVK or anyone else for that matter.............

It's difficult to say what's HvK on these recordings and what is just the VPO playing as if their life depended on it, giving their all for a man who is about to be no more. There must have been a sense of HvK writing his testament in sound with the interpretations for the last year of his performing life. All grief and dis-chord was forgotten... and everyone was on the edge of their seat, trying to do a man right who was only arguably still in charge (as far as technical ability to conduct clearly is concerned) of the performance process.

[Sean]

DarkAngel

Yes you are hearing the subtle differences I am, but to me they are a confidence and deep communion that HVK projects adding extra contrast and depth to the sound for 1988 version, especially notice this in the brass fanfares which seem more blazing and soaring, the vienna strings have a golden Brucknerian glow that deeply penetrate the soul and lift the spirit.......just the ultimate refinement of HVKs Bruckner vision, deeply moving on many levels as HVK faces his mortality.

The final recording by HVK of VPO Bruckner 7 for me is the greatest Bruckner recording ever by HVK or anyone else for that matter.............

Of course, the recording has amazing richness and realism, I think bringing out inner detail that DG sometimes missed.

I bought the Karajan DG Seventh but I knew it from the Boehm- interesting but less successful than his Wagner. And for a favoured recording it would be Karajan's Ninth- I remember I bought two copies of the LP, and again on CD: for anyone with a good mind this is among one's key life experiences.

[Keemun]

Keemun, your post gives me the courage to admit I've only heard Tintner in the 4th, and found it slow and dull.

Yes, this generally describes my impression of Tintner's Bruckner.  I'm still at a loss at to why they're so highly regarded.  But I think Wand's Lubeck 8th is great, and many cannot bear the sonics.  So it's all just a matter of personal preference.   

[MishaK]

I'm in the minority, but I really didn't care for Tintner's Bruckner.  To be fair, I only have Symphonies Nos. 4-7.  These were my introduction to Bruckner and I credit them with part of my difficulty in appreciating Bruckner's music.  Perhaps one of these days I'll give Tintner another try, but whenever I start to listen to one of his recordings I find it unsatisfying and give up.   

I likewise found Tintner's cycle way overhyped. Yes, he's meticulous about phrasing exactly the way it is in the score, but along the way he doesn't bother to provide an adequate differentiation of dynamics (mf-ff at best, no real pp at all) and the orchestras he uses just aren't up to the job half the time. I wanted to kill the trumpet section in his 4th. They're so out of tune!

As to 8ths, these are my faves in no particular order:

Boulez/VPO
Schuricht/VPO
Furtwängler/VPO/1944
Celibidache/MPO
Solti/CSO/1990

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

The final recording by HVK of VPO Bruckner 7 for me is the greatest Bruckner recording ever by HVK or anyone else for that matter.............

Yup, beside the Giulini/VPO one, I admire that recording...
Haha, will see Bruckner 7 next month. I'll love it. My wife will hate it.  She exclusively and only loves positive, very positive tunes. Everything has to be flute and spring and dance and yippeeyay.

[Lethevich]

I'm in the minority, but I really didn't care for Tintner's Bruckner.  To be fair, I only have Symphonies Nos. 4-7.  These were my introduction to Bruckner and I credit them with part of my difficulty in appreciating Bruckner's music.  Perhaps one of these days I'll give Tintner another try, but whenever I start to listen to one of his recordings I find it unsatisfying and give up.   

I agree, he is quite far from being a first choice, but an interesting alternative.

[Haffner]

Any time play the Tintner 7th, the ending/coda of the 1st movement gives me major chills. I think it's because I hear the strings especially well on that recording, where some recordings bury them.

[King Karajan]

Can anyone tell me about this BBC Legends recording. Giullini is on my top list with the VPO and I have read that this is better.

[Lethevich]

Can anyone tell me about this BBC Legends recording. Giullini is on my top list with the VPO and I have read that this is better.

I think anybody claiming this could simply just prefer live performances, or may be indulging in a little wishful thinking. Many reviews of the Guilini material unearthed on BBC Legends have been lukewarm - this one included (although I haven't heard it myself...)

[jlaurson]

Just arrived:



Herbert v. Karajan
Salzburger Orchesterkonzerte 1957
BPh, WPh - ORFEO
Bruckner: Sy. 8


(Also on it: Mozart: Haffner & Jupiter Sys., PC K467, Brahms: German Requiem, T.Berger: "Sinfonia parabolica" / v.Einem: Piano Cto. /A.Honegger: Sy. 3.)

Might be interesting to hear, given the high regard so many hold his EMI Bruckner in which is from around the same time.

Honegger (as all of the contemporary music) with the Berlin Phil. ["Naturally", I want to add.]

[Drasko]

Herbert v. Karajan
Salzburger Orchesterkonzerte 1957
BPh, WPh - ORFEO[/url]
Bruckner: Sy. 8

(Also on it: Mozart: Haffner & Jupiter Sys., PC K467, Brahms: German Requiem, T.Berger: "Sinfonia parabolica" / v.Einem: Piano Cto. /A.Honegger: Sy. 3.)

Live Honegger 3rd, that's very interesting, BPO or VPO?

[mahler10th]

I likewise found Tintner's cycle way overhyped. Yes, he's meticulous about phrasing exactly the way it is in the score, but along the way he doesn't bother to provide an adequate differentiation of dynamics (mf-ff at best, no real pp at all) and the orchestras he uses just aren't up to the job half the time.

I hope the RSNO aren't included in your assessment there.  If so, I suspect it would be Tintner's fault for not getting the best out of them.  I heard them play Bruckners 9th a while back, and they seemed overwhelmingly effective with it.

[MishaK]

I hope the RSNO aren't included in your assessment there.  If so, I suspect it would be Tintner's fault for not getting the best out of them.  I heard them play Bruckners 9th a while back, and they seemed overwhelmingly effective with it.

Recent RSNO performances I have heard have sounded much better than Tintner's efforts. They have a very fine MD now with Stephane Deneve.

[Drasko]

Honegger (as all of the contemporary music) with the Berlin Phil. ["Naturally", I want to add.]

What's that supposed to mean?
Karajan conducted Honegger in concert with both Wiener Symphoniker and Orchestre de Paris aside from BPO and VPO played Honegger's 5th under Ansermet as early as 1951.

[jlaurson]

Karajan conducted Honegger in concert with both Wiener Symphoniker and Orchestre de Paris aside from BPO and VPO played Honegger's 5th under Ansermet as early as 1951.

Wiener SYMPHONIKER, sure. But Philharmoniker... could be, of course... but that was such a conservative orchestra in the 50s and 60s that to think that they played the "Contemporary Music Day" at Salzburg is simply harder to imagine than having the BPh do it. Interesting that they played Honegger at all in the 50s.

[jlaurson]

Herbert v. Karajan
Salzburger Orchesterkonzerte 1957
BPh, WPh - ORFEO
Bruckner: Sy. 8

Might be interesting to hear, given the high regard so many hold his EMI Bruckner in which is from around the same time.

Man... this is going to take some heavy filtering with the ears. The sound quality is not particularly good. And the WPh has its share of sloppy moments. Sometimes I wonder if it's worth pretending to search for alleged greatness in the "interpretation" in such a recording. I well know the difference between greatness and "well played/good sounding"... but I'm beginning to wonder that that distinction can't actually be made on CD but only live.

[jlaurson]

Wiener SYMPHONIKER, sure. But Philharmoniker... could be, of course... but that was such a conservative orchestra in the 50s and 60s that to think that they played the "Contemporary Music Day" at Salzburg is simply harder to imagine than having the BPh do it. Interesting that they played Honegger at all in the 50s.

Well, never mind my blather. The VPO played the OTHER "Contemporary Music Day" in Salzburg that year. (Under Mitropoulos.)

[vandermolen]

Horenstein (BBC, Vox-Turnabout)
Wand
Barbirolli
Jochum (DGG)