Bruckner 8 debate anyone??

[jlaurson]

May I take Dark Angel's collection and add a little to it?!

HVKs Bruckner 8th performances:










 

0) incomplete, patched, 1944 Berlin (Koch Historical)

1) VPO/Andante 1957 80:32

2) BPO/EMI 1957 86:57

3) VPO/Orfeo 1957 81:19

4) BPO/DG 1975 82:20

5) VPO/DG 1988 82:49

The two early VPOs are the swiftest, the Berlin 8th recorded within weeks (before and after) of either the slowest, by far. Interesting fluctuation. Is it the "live vs. studio" effect? Certainly the VPO isn't playing at all flawless in the Salzburg concert.

Now we need someone to tell us to which recordings--if any--the many DVDs correspond.

     

Horenstein (BBC, Vox-Turnabout)
Wand
Barbirolli
Jochum (DGG)

Which Wand? (There must be about 5 different ones floating about. Berlin?)

[nut-job]

Now we need someone to tell us to which recordings--if any--the many DVDs correspond.

I only know of two DVDs, one from Sony with the VPO, from which the audio track of the last DG release is based.  The other is a DG (Unitel) video, which is a VPO performance from around 1978, and which does not correspond to any of the CD releases.

[vandermolen]

Which Wand? (There must be about 5 different ones floating about. Berlin?)

[Haffner]

A great one, that.

[drogulus]

     Lethe, the Jochum Tokyo performance of the 8th is outstanding. It has the majesty of the Karajan EMI and DG '88 but with more fine detail. I have several Jochum recordings (Te Deum, Motets, Psalm 150, 4th Symphony) and he is certainly a first rank Brucknerian.

[jlaurson]

A great one, that.

The great one, that, I dare say. 

(Sarge's mild disapproval notwithstanding.)

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

[Bruckner 8 Wand/BPO]

The great one, that, I dare say. 

No. It is "THE one" .

Also a very good late Wand B8 is on the "Günter Wand Edition" DVDs, Sym8 was the opening of Schleswig-Holstein Musik-Festival 2000 with the NDR SO. A pleasure to see the old man conducting.

[jlaurson]

[Bruckner 8 Wand/BPO]
No. It is "THE one" .

Also a very good late Wand B8 is on the "Günter Wand Edition" DVDs, Sym8 was the opening of Schleswig-Holstein Musik-Festival 2000 with the NDR SO. A pleasure to see the old man conducting.

True... it IS a pleasure to see him conduct. In the 7th, for example, he enters the podium an old, old man--and he leaves after the fourth movement a quickened youngster. Well, not exactly... but he seems to be dropping 10, 15 years over the course of the performance.

However, I am not _as_ enchanted by the performances itself (measured against the highest Wand-expectations). This may or may not be a matter of my not reacting that well to performances on DVD, generally... which is a bit of a funny phenomenon with me.

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I did a little searching through my CDs (the ones I have where I live) and an old excel file of my collection (which isn't updated) and although I might have missed a few, these are my Bruckner 8th:

Wand, NDRSO, Luebeck, DHM
Wand, BPh, RCA
Wand, MPhil, Profil
Karajan, BPh, DG
Karajan, WPh, DG
Karajan, WPh, Orfeo (Salzburg, '57)
Karajan, BPh, EMI
Boulez, WPh, DG
Jochum, BRSO/BPh, DG
Jochum, RCO, Philips/Tahra ('84)
Böhm, BRSO, audite
Böhm, WPh, DG
Furtwängler, WPh, andante ('54)
Celibidache, MPhil, EMI
Haitink, RCO, RCOlive
Haitink, Dresden, Profil
Chailly, RCO, Decca
Giulini, WPh, DG
Giulini, World Phil, EuroArts (DVD)
Kubelik, BRSO, Orfeo ('63)
Knappertsbusch, MPhil, Westminster
Tennstedt, LPO, EMI
Tintner, RScNO, Naxos
Rogg, (Organ trnscr.), BIS

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

I love it maybe because this was my first B8 performance I listened to. I like his tempi. For instance the moments after the timpani/gap in the end of mvmt4, many conductors play this too hastily I think, they destroy the holiest moment...

[King Karajan]

Wand has brilliant control over the tempo in his late BPO. I have been listening to all my 8ths and it's a real toss up between Karajan's last VPO and Wand's last BPO. Giullini still tops my list with just the right amount of tempo to keep the drama and spirit alive. His would be one of the top 5 cd's for my dessert island!

[King Karajan]

I also feel that the timpani in the opening bars of the finale are pivotal. So many conductors under whelm this section and it's so important to keep the grandeur marching along! Jocum's EMI, Giullini's VPO and Wand's late BPO do this with great effect.

[ChamberNut]

I'm curious as to whether anyone has heard Harnoncourt with BP's recording of the 8th? 

[Sergeant Rock]

I also feel that the timpani in the opening bars of the finale are pivotal. So many conductors under whelm this section and it's so important to keep the grandeur marching along! Jocum's EMI, Giullini's VPO and Wand's late BPO do this with great effect.

So does Maazel in Berlin.

Sarge

[King Karajan]

I'm curious as to whether anyone has heard Harnoncourt with BP's recording of the 8th? 

Bought it and sold it the next week. Terrible reading. I was under whelmed by the lightweight nature of the work. Harnoncourt's period views seemed to seep through to the work's detriment.

[Renfield]

May I take Dark Angel's collection and add a little to it?!

HVKs Bruckner 8th performances:










 

0) incomplete, patched, 1944 Berlin (Koch Historical)

1) VPO/Andante 1957     80:32

2) BPO/EMI         1957     86:57

3) VPO/Orfeo       1957     81:19

4) BPO/DG           1975     82:20

5) VPO/DG           1988     82:49

The two early VPOs are the swiftest, the Berlin 8th recorded within weeks (before and after) of either the slowest, by far. Interesting fluctuation. Is it the "live vs. studio" effect? Certainly the VPO isn't playing at all flawless in the Salzburg concert.

Now we need someone to tell us to which recordings--if any--the many DVDs correspond.

     

Which Wand? (There must be about 5 different ones floating about. Berlin?)

Where is the Andante VPO 8th from? I'm curious, as I was (strangely) unaware of it...


Re the DVDs, the 8ths in the first two are one and the same, and identical to the 1988 VPO CD which was/is their soundtrack. The DG (Unitel) DVD is a live VPO 8th from 1979 that does not correspond to any extant CD issue, to the extent of my present knowledge.

[jlaurson]

Where is the Andante VPO 8th from? I'm curious, as I was (strangely) unaware of it...

Where?? Andante is the label. WPh (=VPO) the orchestra, early 1957 is the date... I'm not sure I understand what you are asking about.
Recorded in Vienna at the Konzertsaal. The first concert of HvK with the orchestra since his denazification debut with them (also in Bruckner's 8th!!) 8 years earlier.

[DarkAngel]

Wand has brilliant control over the tempo in his late BPO. I have been listening to all my 8ths and it's a real toss up between Karajan's last VPO and Wand's last BPO. Giullini still tops my list with just the right amount of tempo to keep the drama and spirit alive. His would be one of the top 5 cd's for my dessert island!

King K.......
I was wondering if you own the Wand/NDR/RCA version live at Lubeck Cathedral?

I like this better than the later BPO/RCA which for me does not have the same intensity level, smoother more refined yes but lacking the dramatic contrast at Lubeck especially in the brass fanfares that have real bite, fire and dig a bit deeper.......the musical spires reach higher at Lubeck. Also the cathedral offers a huge soundstage which produces distant sonic reverberations when music climaxes then suddenly drops off, tremendous 3D sense of space and scale.

About the only choice to get Lubeck 8th & 9th now is as CDR from Arkiv music

The final Wand/BPO/RCA 8th reminds me very much of the Giulini/VPO/DG version, so I fully understand how those two would attract the same amount of praise if that is the style of Bruckner one seeks.............

[King Karajan]

King K.......
I was wondering if you own the Wand/NDR/RCA version live at Lubeck Cathedral?

I like this better than the later BPO/RCA which for me does not have the same intensity level, smoother more refined yes but lacking the dramatic contrast at Lubeck especially in the brass fanfares that have real bite, fire and dig a bit deeper.......the musical spires reach higher at Lubeck. Also the cathedral offers a huge soundstage which produces distant sonic reverberations when music climaxes then suddenly drops off, tremendous 3D sense of space and scale.

About the only choice to get Lubeck 8th & 9th now is as CDR from Arkiv music

The final Wand/BPO/RCA 8th reminds me very much of the Giulini/VPO/DG version, so I fully understand how those two would attract the same amount of praise if that is the style of Bruckner one seeks.............

I don't own this one but I'll have to seek it out. Many thanks. I look forward to it.

[Renfield]

Where?? Andante is the label. WPh (=VPO) the orchestra, early 1957 is the date... I'm not sure I understand what you are asking about.

I meant where it was recorded.

The Orfeo is from Salzburg, and I was just wondering where Karajan did another Bruckner 8th with the VPO in 1957, which I was not aware of.

[ChamberNut]

Well, I got a chance today to listen to the 1989 Karajan with Vienna Philharmonic recording of the 8th.  Overall, enjoyable but certainly not as enthralling or invigorating a performance as Jochum/SD, not to me anyhow.  The 3rd and 4th movements were the best on here.  Found the first movement OK, and absolutely detested the Scherzo 2nd movement.  It seemed like the slowest of all 4 movements, like it was being played "Lento".  Really sluggish, it lacked that pop.  Perhaps, that's the way it's supposed to be played, but I like that Scherzo to be on the fast side, for my liking.