Gurn's Classical Corner

[Gurn Blanston]

chas et al,
Well, rather than type vast reams, I went to Grove's and copied their article on style here. For a little background, there were several centers of musical development in Europe at that time, Italy still being the main one (with all its subsections; Naples, Rome, Venice etc), but also the main axis was shifting north rather rapidly. Someone mentioned the Bachsonnes, they were actually well north of Mannheim, in and around Berlin/Potsdam by then. From what I can see, the main musicians in Mannheim were Bohemians (Czechs). Johan Stamitz, Georg Benda, countless others, all Bohemians. The leaders/composers were a mix of developed-at-home like Stamitz, and hired guns, like Nicolo Jomelli. So there was a large Italian influence in some critical areas. Despite the fact that the specific composers are not household names today (although some should be!) it is the playing style they created which exercised  such a great influence on the rest of Europe. Mozart, for example, was blown away by their playing. Anyway, here is that article.

From "The New Grove" article "Mannheim Style":
Mannheim style.
A style found in instrumental works, primarily symphonies, by composers active at the electoral court of Mannheim from about 1740 to 1778. A principal feature of the style is its tendency to exploit dynamic effects. On the small scale, this may take the form of either an abrupt or a graduated change in dynamic level within a short span of time, adding to the expressive and dramatic character of the work (exx.1 and 3). On a larger scale, Mannheim symphonies often incorporate an extended, thematically independent crescendo passage or Walze ('roller', sometimes anachronistically translated as 'steamroller'; ex.2). Such passages, most of which contain a rising melodic line over a pedal point or oscillating bass pattern, typically reappear at important junctures within the movement, contributing a sense of profile to the form. The predilection at Mannheim for striking dynamic effects doubtless finds its best explanation in the superlative quality of the Mannheim orchestra; the renowned precision of execution of this orchestra, as well as its large size, served to foster such a compositional approach. This approach did not, however, originate with Mannheim (as claimed by Riemann, who published the first detailed description of the Mannheim style). Rather, it originated to a substantial degree in Italy, most notably in opera of the early Classical period and its associated instrumental music; Italian opera formed the core of the Mannheim operatic repertory and was thus familiar to the composers there. For example, crescendo passages comparable in virtually every respect with those of Johann Stamitz occur at an earlier date in overtures to operas by Nicolò Jommelli. (note: Jommelli spent several years working at Mannheim, so his influence didn't "filter in", he introduced it to Stamitz, who was the first violin/concertmaster at the time - GB).

Riemann also devoted considerable attention to the Mannheim melodic style, delineating a large number of what he termed 'Mannheimer Manieren' or Mannheim figures. (The idea of a 'mannered Mannheim style' was not new; Leopold Mozart remarked on the 'vermanierierten Manheimmer goût' in a letter to his son, 11 December 1777, probably referring to the Piano Sonata k309/284b.) The figures discussed by Riemann are primarily orchestral and include the 'sigh' (see ex.1), the Bebung (see ex.3), and the 'rocket' (a rising triadic theme in equal note values). While Riemann was correct in pointing out the existence of these and other melodic clichés in the Mannheim symphony, he again erred in assigning priority to Mannheim: all can be found earlier in Italy, not only in vocal but in instrumental music, especially opera overtures. It is true that many symphonies from Stamitz's late period, and particularly those of Anton Fils and the later Mannheim symphonists, make more extensive and more stylized use of these melodic conventions than do contemporaneous Italian opera overtures; but their origin was Italy, and by mid-century they were in use all over Europe.

The same may be said of various other characteristics often associated with the Mannheim style, for instance homophonic texture, slow harmonic rhythm, and thematic differentiation within expositions of fast movements (e.g. the use of a contrasting secondary theme). In the realm of orchestration, though, the Mannheim symphony goes well beyond its Italian models, especially in the idiomatic quality of its scoring and the frequent introduction of solo passages for woodwind and horns. Here again the excellence of the electoral orchestra played an obvious role, although the soloistic use of the wind in particular may also betray French influence (e.g. that of Rameau).

Riemann's conception of the Mannheim style, which has formed the basis of many more recent accounts, can also be criticized for its tendency to view that style as monolithic, cutting across boundaries of both genre and personal idiom. In the case of genre, his description actually applies only to selected symphonies and a few orchestral trios and quartets: the chamber style at Mannheim differs markedly from the orchestral, the concerto style is generally conservative, and the operatic and church styles lean heavily on Italian vocal models, to mention the most notable exceptions to the common stereotype. Even within the symphony, the variety of styles remains great, conspicuously so in the works of those composers active at Mannheim before 1760 (Stamitz, F.X. Richter, Ignaz Holzbauer and Fils). In sum, musical style at Mannheim encompasses a wide range of stylistic types, evident not only between composers, but also within the work of each composer.


I highlighted a few names and ideas in there. Some later names that I personally feel were notable are Christian Cannabich, and in particular F. Ignaz Beck, who IMO was the best of the bunch at interesting symphonic composition.

Anyway, that'll do for getting along with. I haven't really seen a book to recommend specifically on this topic, but there are so many mentions of it 'here and there' that one comes away after a few years of reading with the belief that one actually knows something about it!   Maybe so....

Regards,
Gurn

[SonicMan46]

Gurn - thanks for the interesting (and concise) quote & your discussion on the Mannheim school & orchestra - I own the book below (not cheap on the Oxford label) which I mentioned previously (maybe in this thread - too lazy to search at the moment); but for those interested, the orchestra is traced from 1650-1815 (as shown on the front cover) - the discussion is excellent and the development and expansion of a wide assortment of 'bands' is discussed.

Now, pertinent to the Mannheim Orchestra, the number and composition (this is from an appendix in the back listing numerous orchestras in the 1773-78 period; in a compilation of 33 for that time period, the average #performers was 33, range, 12-68) was:

21 Violins - 7 Violas - 4 Cellos - 3 Double Basses
3 Flutes - 3 Oboes - 4 Clarinets - 4 Bassoons
6 Horns - 2 trumpets - 1 Timpani - 2 Harpsichords  TOTAL: Nearly 60 (I'm sure not all played during each performance).

But, this was quite a BIG orchestra for its time, and of course had enormous and deep talent in its performers (and composers) - Dave

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn - thanks for the interesting (and concise) quote & your discussion on the Mannheim school & orchestra - I own the book below (not cheap on the Oxford label) which I mentioned previously (maybe in this thread - too lazy to search at the moment); but for those interested, the orchestra is traced from 1650-1815 (as shown on the front cover) - the discussion is excellent and the development and expansion of a wide assortment of 'bands' is discussed.

Now, pertinent to the Mannheim Orchestra, the number and composition (this is from an appendix in the back listing numerous orchestras in the 1773-78 period; in a compilation of 33 for that time period, the average #performers was 33, range, 12-68) was:

21 Violins - 7 Violas - 4 Cellos - 3 Double Basses
3 Flutes - 3 Oboes - 4 Clarinets - 4 Bassoons
6 Horns - 2 trumpets - 1 Timpani - 2 Harpsichords  TOTAL: Nearly 60 (I'm sure not all played during each performance).

But, this was quite a BIG orchestra for its time, and of course had enormous and deep talent in its performers (and composers) - Dave

Thanks, Dave, and also for the book info. Now that you refresh my memory, I do recall you posting this before. I need to add it to the library!

That was a HUGE orchestra! Other than the occasional "festival orchestra and chorus" as we call them today, I don't think I have seen one referenced at that size until Haydn's London trips in the 1790's. Although it is very difficult to pin down how many players were actually available for any particular concert, since the numbers come from such things as payroll records (which includes retirees, for example) and tax rolls and expense reports (which includes supernumeraries). This is a problem with all 18th century records, even the fastidiously kept ones at Esterhazy. Nonetheless, the size of the orchestra, coupled with the precision of their playing knocked the socks off all who heard them. 

[chasmaniac]

Thanks all, good stuff.

Beecke and Richter I am familiar with through these releases:

[Gurn Blanston]

Thanks all, good stuff.

Beecke and Richter I am familiar with through these releases:

Strongly recommend Ignaz Beck. This is a good intro:

[asin]B0000014AK[/asin] or

[asin]B003IP2Y4O[/asin] or

[asin]B0002J9TSI[/asin]

Naxos has more than done justice (they have 3 or 4 more), and CPO has done well too (4 disks, 2 complete opuses)

[chasmaniac]

Not Mannheimer, but this looks like a good set for someone (like me) who wants a bit of everything but not every little bit. $30 for 5 discs right now at Arkiv. Comments?

[mc ukrneal]

Not Mannheimer, but this looks like a good set for someone (like me) who wants a bit of everything but not every little bit. $30 for 5 discs right now at Arkiv. Comments?

Outstanding. I have three of the five, each very good. Can be had for about $27 (inlcudes US shipping) at Amazon MP. In any case, the quality of the discs is good - no need to hesitate over that. The others in the series are also excellent!

[chasmaniac]

Well Guys - went on a Jadin buying spree (although a rather exaggerated statement w/ the limited number of his recordings available) - re-listening to the 3 newest additions to my collection from the 'flower child' - wish he had lived longer - 

   

I've been well pleased by the Jadin 3s for some time, but just this morning managed to give the 4s a good listen (meaning a car listen) and my rude peasant brain found them splendid. Between this and their recording of Rigel 4s, Quatuor Franz Joseph has shown itself a more than capable outfit.

[Gurn Blanston]

Not Mannheimer, but this looks like a good set for someone (like me) who wants a bit of everything but not every little bit. $30 for 5 discs right now at Arkiv. Comments?

Absolutely. No worries there, matey. IIRC< there are 2 of those 5 disk boxes that would give you the lion's share of that series. Having the bulk of the series as singles, I would opt for the 5 boxes now.

[chasmaniac]

Gurn and MC - thanks! I'll plunk for this when budget allows.

Maybe more of the series will find itself boxed in future.

[SonicMan46]

Gurn and MC - thanks! I'll plunk for this when budget allows.

Maybe more of the series will find itself boxed in future.

Chas - not to worry; Bamert has pleased me in many different recordings in this series - concerning the current offering, I have recordings of the symphonies of all of these composers (not all by Bamert) and the music is uniformly excellent!  Dave

[chasmaniac]

Gave #6 a spin this morning and it was... alright.

Beethoven just doesn't do it for me. I hear a bearish personality in everything he wrote, and I much prefer my music abstract. Is I dumb? Maybe I'm stuck inside an idee fixe?

A cry for help. Help!

[Gurn Blanston]

Gave #6 a spin this morning and it was... alright.

Beethoven just doesn't do it for me. I hear a bearish personality in everything he wrote, and I much prefer my music abstract. Is I dumb? Maybe I'm stuck inside an idee fixe?

A cry for help. Help!

I don't know about all that, chas. Personally I hear everything as abstract (absolute as the music people say) so other than the occasional birdcall, I don't hear the 6th any differently than the other F major symphony.

I have to say that if you hear all his compositions that way, you very well may be stuck in an idee fixe. There are thousands of moments of great delicacy and beauty to offset the moments of power and even brutality. I recommend that you move away from the symphonies and towards the chamber music instead. Not talking late quartets here, Beethoven wrote dozens of early chamber works that are a pleasure to hear.

[chasmaniac]

Good advice. I have available to me piano, cello and violin sonatas, piano and string trios. I will revisit these and make an effort not to picture that surly face while I listen!

Interesting use of "absolute". Daniel Jones applied the word to some of Dylan Thomas's poetry, and specifically (iirc) to Altarwise by Owl Light. Such poetry uses an interlinked web of sounds, rhythms,  images, grammatical structures and meanings to constitute its lyrical sense, to be what it would otherwise be about. Such a creation is inherently difficult, if not impossible, to parse in plain prose; thus the moniker "absolute". Strikes me there is a good analogy here to some musics at least.

[mc ukrneal]

Gave #6 a spin this morning and it was... alright.

Beethoven just doesn't do it for me. I hear a bearish personality in everything he wrote, and I much prefer my music abstract. Is I dumb? Maybe I'm stuck inside an idee fixe?

A cry for help. Help!

Maybe this is one of those times where you need to pay less attention? It sounds like you overthinking it. Good advice - as I was doing something similar to RVW #1 yesterday. When I stopped trying to listen and just listened, I enjoyed myself much more (and the music too).

[chasmaniac]

Maybe this is one of those times where you need to pay less attention? It sounds like you overthinking it. Good advice - as I was doing something similar to RVW #1 yesterday. When I stopped trying to listen and just listened, I enjoyed myself much more (and the music too).

Yes. My own advice to folks about "getting" classical music is: don't anticipate or direct it; just let it happen! That's what I'll do.

[kishnevi]

Good advice. I have available to me piano, cello and violin sonatas, piano and string trios. I will revisit these and make an effort not to picture that surly face while I listen!

Here's some not-surly Beethoven portraits (all of them of the young composer, in one case the very young composer).


(all via Wikipedia)

[Elgarian]

Gave #6 a spin this morning and it was... alright.

Beethoven just doesn't do it for me. I hear a bearish personality in everything he wrote, and I much prefer my music abstract. Is I dumb? Maybe I'm stuck inside an idee fixe?

A cry for help. Help!

I spent most of my adult life thinking that Beethoven was  '... alright', so I have a particular sympathy with your cri de coeur. I even had that very same set of Mackerras symphonies as you have. And everyone says they're excellent - don't they? So you had expectations. But yes, I know, they're  '.... alright'.

Of course the problem is that I don't know whether the reason for your perceived '... alright-ness' is the same as mine was, because we're different animals. But surely there's a fair chance (I tell myself, indulgently) that what you really need is to hear Beethoven riding on a motorbike, instead of driving a family saloon. In which case, if you can, get yourself a listen to Immerseel's period set of Beethoven symphonies and see what you think:



His fifth transformed me from a state of '.... alright', to rocking around the room and punching the air. Exploring the rest of the box was as exciting a ride as classical music has ever given me. I burbled enthusiastically about it here:

The 5th:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1954.msg335300.html#msg335300

6th:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1954.msg337657.html#msg337657

7th:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1954.msg340655.html#msg340655

6th (again) and 3rd:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1954.msg340802.html#msg340802

You can buy this box for a mere £18 now. Crikey. Well, if I were King of the World, everyone would be given one for free, at birth, as a future life investment. Give it a shot, is my advice.

[chasmaniac]

My Beethoven rehabilitation project has begun successfully, if safely, with the string trio in Ef op.3. Lovely stuff.



Elgarian: thanks for the tip!

[mc ukrneal]

My Beethoven rehabilitation project has begun successfully, if safely, with the string trio in Ef op.3. Lovely stuff.



Elgarian: thanks for the tip!

By the way, you can find Immerseel's Beethoven on youtube if you want to sample it before you buy.