Schumann Fantasia in C

[nut-job]

I've accumulated numerous recordings of this piece, more or less by accident.  Every CD comes with a booklet describing this piece as "perhaps Schumann's greatest work."  I've never been able to stay awake through it.  It strikes me as the musical version of oatmeal.  Bland and viscous, lacking in any discernible structure.  What do you hear in this piece?

[Chafing Dish]

"greatest work" is a fairly meaningless phrase, and rubs many composers the wrong way, rightly so.

There are things Schumann achieves in the Fantasia that he achieves nowhere else: marrying concerns for detail with a large scale, ambitious, sprawling yet not meandering form. It is really most impressive. But my appreciation for it would be nowhere near what it is if I didn't also know the Davidsbündlertänze, the Waldszenen, the Konzertstück for 4 horns, or other such clues to the composer's musical personality.

My favorite recording is Sviatoslav Richter's. PTIYPASI

[nut-job]

My favorite recording is Sviatoslav Richter's. PTIYPASI

I almost felt that I had some grasp of the piece in Brendel's recent recording.  Today I was listening to a Richter recording from '61, which I find less convincing.

[springrite]

I almost felt that I had some grasp of the piece in Brendel's recent recording.  Today I was listening to a Richter recording from '61, which I find less convincing.

You will probably like Fiorentino's recording, which is currently my favorite.

[ezodisy]

You will probably like Fiorentino's recording, which is currently my favorite.

Yeah that's a great performance by Fiorentino.

The work has a structure but I love it because it's more like a fantasie/rhapsody and swirls about in a way that seems uncontrolled. I think he wrote it while pining away in love, which is what it sounds like I think, all feverish and aching and extreme. I don't know how you got "bland" out of it, maybe it'll change with time

[Holden]

Yeah that's a great performance by Fiorentino.

The work has a structure but I love it because it's more like a fantasie/rhapsody and swirls about in a way that seems uncontrolled. I think he wrote it while pining away in love, which is what it sounds like I think, all feverish and aching and extreme. I don't know how you got "bland" out of it, maybe it'll change with time

My vote also goes to Fiorentino and it's interesting to know that he recorded it twice. Live in Paderborn Germany on Dec 12 1993 and a studio recording on Oct 19 1996 in berlin. It's hard to pick between the two and both have replaced Richter as my top choice. There was third recording from 1960 but the master tape is lost and I don't know if it ever made it to the shelves.

An interesting third choice is Dino Ciani.

[orbital]

One of my favorite Schumann pieces. It is full of very imaginativ themes which may sound disconnected at first (it is a fantasie after all)
My vote for favorite recording goes to Richter. But there is also a close second: Sokolov.

[sul G]

One of my favorite Schumann pieces. It is full of very imaginativ themes which may sound disconnected at first (it is a fantasie after all)

Absolutely! It's one of the fundamental works in the mid-Romantic repertoire, I think, a piece whose stature seems to stretch well beyond its final double bar. Its allusiveness (from the 'Clara' motive to the Beethoven reference and beyond) and its subtlety are things we normally find in Schumann's fragment forms more than his larger works IMO - extended like this, and yet with the tension and imagination maintained throughout, the music becomes very special indeed.

[nut-job]

One of my favorite Schumann pieces. It is full of very imaginativ themes which may sound disconnected at first (it is a fantasie after all)
My vote for favorite recording goes to Richter. But there is also a close second: Sokolov.

That is what puzzles me, the lack of any recognizable themes.  Schubert's similarly large scale fantasia ("The Wanderer") begins with an arresting theme, including a rhythmic cell which undergoes various transformations as the music develops.  The Schumann sonata opens with what I hesitate to call a theme, a meandering series of notes against a left hand which does a lot of work just to maintain an indistinct murmur in the background.   If that "theme" returned or was transformed would I even notice? 

Absolutely! It's one of the fundamental works in the mid-Romantic repertoire, I think, a piece whose stature seems to stretch well beyond its final double bar. Its allusiveness (from the 'Clara' motive to the Beethoven reference and beyond) and its subtlety are things we normally find in Schumann's fragment forms more than his larger works IMO - extended like this, and yet with the tension and imagination maintained throughout, the music becomes very special indeed.

Praise that is as allusive as the fantasia itself, lacking any definite statement that can be related to the music.  A post in which tension and imagination are maintained throughout, and whose stature seems to stretch well beyond its final html tag, but what does it all mean?

[sul G]

Praise that is as allusive as the fantasia itself, lacking any definite statement that can be related to the music.  A post in which tension and imagination are maintained throughout, and whose stature seems to stretch well beyond its final html tag, but what does it all mean?

Well, bloody hell, you asked, and I gave a response - what rattled your cage?  Personally I don't recognise my post in your description of it.

[sul G]

That is what puzzles me, the lack of any recognizable themes.  Schubert's similarly large scale fantasia ("The Wanderer") begins with an arresting theme, including a rhythmic cell which undergoes various transformations as the music develops.  The Schumann sonata opens with what I hesitate to call a theme, a meandering series of notes against a left hand which does a lot of work just to maintain an indistinct murmur in the background.   If that "theme" returned or was transformed would I even notice? 

Well, that doesn't mean that this problem you have with the opening translates to everyone else. The Clara motive which is at the heart of this opening theme - the descending scale idea, essentially, is instantly recognisable, I think. And that 'indistinct murmur' in the left hand is essentially a diminution of the theme it accompanies, so that the idea permeates the texture at two levels and at two speeds - it's a marvellous gesture, this impetuous, passionate rush of notes.

It's not a sonata, btw.

[Bulldog]

My vote also goes to Fiorentino and it's interesting to know that he recorded it twice. Live in Paderborn Germany on Dec 12 1993 and a studio recording on Oct 19 1996 in berlin. It's hard to pick between the two and both have replaced Richter as my top choice. There was third recording from 1960 but the master tape is lost and I don't know if it ever made it to the shelves.

An interesting third choice is Dino Ciani.

My three picks are Schliessmann, Richter and Annie Fischer.

[nut-job]

Well, bloody hell, you asked, and I gave a response - what rattled your cage?  Personally I don't recognise my post in your description of it.

Sorry, didn't mean to offend.  Just hoping for something more specific about the music itself that would give me a foot in the door, beyond the fact that it is fundamental, allusive, subtle and imaginative.  

Oh well, perhaps I should just put the disc up on amazon or ebay and let someone else enjoy it.  The Brendel disc stays, it has a nice recording of the Schumann concerto.  The Richter one, packed with other allusive, subtle, fundamental Schumann piano music with tension, it's on the block.  

[orbital]

That is what puzzles me, the lack of any recognizable themes.  Schubert's similarly large scale fantasia ("The Wanderer") begins with an arresting theme, including a rhythmic cell which undergoes various transformations as the music develops.  The Schumann sonata opens with what I hesitate to call a theme, a meandering series of notes against a left hand which does a lot of work just to maintain an indistinct murmur in the background.   If that "theme" returned or was transformed would I even notice? 

Yes, but only if you like the music well enough to listen it a few more times. I can probably go through the whole 1st movement in my head when I start listening to it. The piece is not a sonata, it is not expected to go through an exposition-development-recapitulation phase. Schumann's left hand figurations (from my very limited attempt at trying to play them  ) are peculiar. Here, it does indeed provide a background for the grandoise right hand opening theme. But quite soon it transforms to a sort of echoing of what is to follow in the main melody.
That being said, I've never been a fan of Schubert's fantasy  . In fact, I hardly ever listen to it, and I much prefer his impromptus.

[Bulldog]

I've accumulated numerous recordings of this piece, more or less by accident.  Every CD comes with a booklet describing this piece as "perhaps Schumann's greatest work."  I've never been able to stay awake through it.  It strikes me as the musical version of oatmeal.  Bland and viscous, lacking in any discernible structure.  What do you hear in this piece?

I don't have an idea what your problem is with the work.  First movement is rapture, second loaded with tension/excitement and the third is essentially a gorgeous love song.  I can understand that you might not think the entire work holds together well, but each movement is certainly a gem.

[nut-job]

Well, that doesn't mean that this problem you have with the opening translates to everyone else. The Clara motive which is at the heart of this opening theme - the descending scale idea, essentially, is instantly recognisable, I think. And that 'indistinct murmur' in the left hand is essentially a diminution of the theme it accompanies, so that the idea permeates the texture at two levels and at two speeds - it's a marvellous gesture, this impetuous, passionate rush of notes.

It's not a sonata, btw.

Yes, I'm aware that is is not a sonata.  

But now you've given me something to listen for, at least.  But again, the Clara motif, though.  I have the same problem with it I have with Berlioz's idee fixe in the Symphonia Fantastique, it just seems too unremarkable and indistinct.  At best evokes an image of Clara getting at poor Bobby for leaving his socks lying about in the drawing room again.

[Todd]

The Fantasie is a great work, though I find some other Schumann works better.  I have no problems at all with the work.  As to recordings, Gieseking is extraordinary in the two complete versions I have from him, but an incomplete version is better in the movements that were recorded.  Annie Fischer is likewise extraordinary in the work, as are Richter and Pollini.

[George]

I studied this one in college for a piano history course. At that time I bought Richter(EMI) and Kempff. I thought that Kempff's made more sense, so I used that one for the purpose of the course. Years later, I grew to love Richter's interpretation. As is his style, the work is played in a powerful fashion, yet he is able to soften considerably for the more gentle moments.

[orbital]

I studied this one in college for a piano history course. At that time I bought Richter(EMI) and Kempff. I thought that Kempff's made more sense, so I used that one for the purpose of the course.

Yes, I have a softness for Kempff's Schumann -perhaps because it was through him that I got to know Schumann's piano works.  His sensible approach levels down the music.

[George]

Yes, I have a softness for Kempff's Schumann -perhaps because it was through him that I got to know Schumann's piano works.  His sensible approach levels down the music.

Yeah, he's like Lithium to Schumann's music.