Bach Better Than Handel

[Florestan]

karl...he's not disagreeing with me though, he's disagreeing with something that's widely known & written about as expressed by Jacob Greenberg who is a pro, maybe Andrei should nitpick with him? it's besides the gist of that post anyhow, which was directed to Corkin. I'm pressed for time, Andrei will perhaps research the matter more deeply if he's that into this...google away!

I don't nitpick with anyone. All I'm saying is that no one can know for sure what a composer had in mind when composing anything. 

[Dancing Divertimentian]

My conclusion is that I have no reason to disagree with Beethoven on the matter, it is Handel who is the clear and undisputed master.

I have no reason to disagree with Mozart...who liked both composers.

[Gabriel]

I have no reason to disagree with Mozart...who liked both composers.

Indeed. I also made a reference (many posts ago) to Beethoven's opinion expressing his admiration towards Händel. But his opinion shouldn't be taken as a final one at all, because Beethoven probably didn't have the knowledge of Bach's works that began just after 1827. If he had known the B minor mass, the Matthäuspassion or many other works by Bach, his opinion could have been different. (For sure, we will never know).

Great music is great music, even if it is composed by an anonymous composer. Händel, Bach, Cherubini and Beethoven left us masterpieces that we will always enjoy, with no need of comparisons of "greater" or "better".

[jlaurson]

I don't nitpick with anyone. All I'm saying is that no one can know for sure what a composer had in mind when composing anything. 

Art--as indeed history--is not about certainties but reasonable probabilities. Speculation, theories, hypothesis, claims... they are all part of that.
David Irwing, I believe, uses the "how can we know for sure" argument... despite reasonable evidence that directly contradicts his claims.

Of course we can reasonably argue the pros and cons of whether Beethoven was influenced by Bach in the Diabelli Variations, but pointing out that we can't know for sure (in the face of all probability and scholarly research) isn't part of such a debate. Can we agree on that?

[Florestan]

Art--as indeed history--is not about certainties but reasonable probabilities. Speculation, theories, hypothesis, claims... they are all part of that.
David Irwing, I believe, uses the "how can we know for sure" argument... despite reasonable evidence that directly contradicts his claims.

Of course we can reasonably argue the pros and cons of whether Beethoven was influenced by Bach in the Diabelli Variations, but pointing out that we can't know for sure (in the face of all probability and scholarly research) isn't part of such a debate. Can we agree on that?

Yes, absolutely, I agree, especially the highlighted parts.

[karlhenning]

Of course we can reasonably argue the pros and cons of whether Beethoven was influenced by Bach in the Diabelli Variations, but pointing out that we can't know for sure (in the face of all probability and scholarly research) isn't part of such a debate. Can we agree on that?

Sure.

And, I do think there is intellectual value in pointing out the fatuity of such formulations as X surely had in mind Y when composing / writing / painting Z...

Even in the Arts, it is worthwhile to draw a distinction between What Is the Case, and bloviation.

[jlaurson]

And, I do think there is intellectual value in pointing out the fatuity of such formulations as X surely had in mind Y when composing / writing / painting Z...
Even in the Arts, it is worthwhile to draw a distinction between What Is the Case, and bloviation.

I think the issue you have with the above phrase is a rhetorical one... and you let if affect yourself more than helpful. If you switch your "principle of charity" on, you will find it to mean: "influenced by" or "referencing" or even "paying homage to".
That Bach is on the pages in Beethoven's Diabelli Variations is just about as obvious as Beethoven being on the pages in Mendelssohn's op.13/2. So much for "what is the case". As per bloviation, I humbly refer back to you, as you probably have a greater expertise in that field than I.

[Ah, sorry... snark-attack went through with me.]

[karlhenning]

As per bloviation, I humbly refer back to you, as you probably have a greater expertise in that field than I.

Happily, you are not likely anyone's reference for charity.

[Marc]

Bach better than Händel?

Let's toss.

Art--as indeed history--is not about certainties but reasonable probabilities.

This discussion remains futile and purpose-less. 

Can we agree on that?

Agreed. Agreed.

[Dr. Dread]

A bit of comparison never hurt anyone. I'm not about to shovel it all into one happy hole.

[Coopmv]

A bit of comparison never hurt anyone. I'm not about to shovel it all into one happy hole.

Here is a thread that is shovel-ready ...   

[Dr. Dread]

Yet you keep posting in it.

[Rod Corkin]

I'm a great Handel fan, but every time I read one of your posts I feel the urge to listen to some Bach to cleanse myself.

Well I'm doing a topic on 'The Music Offering' at my site at the moment with lots of audio/video samples so feel free to cleanse yourself.

Ironically TMO is a good example if the Bachinan 'cult' I was referring to above. That such dull music has been passed off as a supreme masterpiece by the musical academia is testament to it. Even the Bach fans I know find it tiresome.

[The new erato]

Ironically TMO is a good example if the Bachinan 'cult' I was referring to above. That such dull music has been passed off as a supreme masterpiece by the musical academia is testament to it. Even the Bach fans I know find it tiresome.

Must.....play.....some......Bach......before......I.....choke......

[The new erato]

We're going though all of the Bach church cantatas too, which is of course a lot of Bach, with a few choice cuts from all of them. So if you are thirsty..

Thank you for a sense of humor. As I said, I simply love Handel and think he was overlooked for many years; but mainly i think because his works were concentrated in fewer forms (his instrumental works are very few compared to Bach's for example) and because the baroque dramatic forms are very alien to modern thinking and needed a lot of exposure to mature and sink in. I think watching lots of soap operas on TV has prepared us all for baroque opera.

[Rod Corkin]

Thank you for a sense of humor. As I said, I simply love Handel and think he was overlooked for many years; but mainly i think because his works were concentrated in fewer forms.

A casual glance at the works list of Handel does not fit in with this notion, if anything I'd say it is Bach who has less variety....
http://www.gfhandel.org/genre.htm

Handel has vastly more 'big works' but even the best of them like Theodora were rarely if ever performed or recorded until the 1990s or even this century. Can you imagine the greatest of Bach's music being given this neglect? Never.

[Coopmv]

A casual glance at the works list of Handel does not fit in with this notion, if anything I'd say it is Bach who has less variety....
http://www.gfhandel.org/genre.htm

Handel has vastly more 'big works' but even the best of them like Theodora were rarely if ever performed or recorded until the 1990s or even this century. Can you imagine the greatest of Bach's music being given this neglect? Never.

In case you are not aware, most of Bach's music was no longer performed by the 1830's, less than a century after Bach's death.  It took Felix Mendelssohn, a German Jew who was converted to Christianity to re-discover Bach's work, the St. Matthew Passion in particular. 

[Dr. Dread]

One of my favorite Handel operas:





The work impresses most with its depth, color, and invention, not its fireworks.

Finally got it, Don. 

[Coopmv]

Finally got it, Don. 

No record company does it better than CPO when it comes to obscure baroque works ...

[Dr. Dread]

No record company does it better than CPO when it comes to obscure baroque works ...

Thanks for the tip, Coop.