The Case of Herbert von Karajan

[Que]

This thread has been split off the general "Karajan Legacy" thread - that focusses on his recordings - to discuss Karajan's personal life history.

His wives, his hairstyle, his PR, his political affiliations, you name it.
I have a hunch what the main topic here will be and I do not think it's a wise idea, but be my guest...

Q

[SonicMan46]

Well, y'all know that Karajan belong to the Nazi Party which has had a strong influence on me in buying any recordings by him despite their quality or recommendations - now my wife is Jewish (not me), but this has had an impact over decades about my feelings toward the Nazis in WWII - I'm not trying to insult any of our current members & forum friends who happen to be German, but I do have a strong feeling that has pretty much prohibited me from buying his music (do own a few discs!) - this may be irrational on my part, but such is being human and being influenced by history - BTW, Wiki ARTICLE HERE, if interested - just a consideration for those who may care about such things - Dave 

[imperfection]

Well, y'all know that Karajan belong to the Nazi Party which has had a strong influence on me in buying any recordings by him despite their quality or recommendations - now my wife is Jewish (not me), but this has had an impact over decades about my feelings toward the Nazis in WWII - I'm not trying to insult any of our current members & forum friends who happen to be German, but I do have a strong feeling that has pretty much prohibited me from buying his music (do own a few discs!) - this may be irrational on my part, but such is being human and being influenced by history - BTW, Wiki ARTICLE HERE, if interested - just a consideration for those who may care about such things - Dave 

I respect your decision, but it is a very irrational and unfortunate one indeed.

[Coopmv]

When it comes to symphonic music, Karajan was almost second to none in the latter half of the 20th century.  While I despise the Nazis, I am not going to let Karajan's past association with them stand in the way of my appreciation of his consummate skill as a conductor.

[Coopmv]

Almost...except, perhaps, for:
Abbado
Barbirolli
Beecham
Berglund
Bernstein
Blomstedt
Böhm
Boulez
Boult
Chailly
Davis
Dorati
Fischer
Furtwängler
Gardiner
Gergiev
Giulini
Haitink
Harnoncourt
Jacobs
Jansons
Jochum
Kempe
Kertész
Kleiber
Klemperer, Otto
Klemperer
Kondrashin
Koussevitsky
Kubelik
Levine
Maazel
MacKerras
Mahler
Markevitch
Mravinsky
Ormandy
Pappano
Rozhdestvensky
Salonen
Sanderling
Segerstam
Sinopoli
Solti
Strauss
Szell
Tilson Thomas
Toscanini
Vänskä
Wand
Zinman
and doubtless a couple of dozen more I've neglected to mention.

But you forgot about the Nazi salute Böhm was famous for ...

[jwinter]

Well, y'all know that Karajan belong to the Nazi Party which has had a strong influence on me in buying any recordings by him despite their quality or recommendations - now my wife is Jewish (not me), but this has had an impact over decades about my feelings toward the Nazis in WWII - I'm not trying to insult any of our current members & forum friends who happen to be German, but I do have a strong feeling that has pretty much prohibited me from buying his music (do own a few discs!) - this may be irrational on my part, but such is being human and being influenced by history - BTW, Wiki ARTICLE HERE, if interested - just a consideration for those who may care about such things - Dave 

I can certainly understand where you're coming from, but I agree that it's an unfortunate decision.  For one thing, using that standard and rationale you'd need to throw out a lot of really good conductors -- Karl Bohm comes immediately to mind -- as well as many other musicians, artists, writers, and on and on.  More importantly, I'll admit that I haven't read extensively on the subject -- a bit of Richard Osborne's biography, and that's about it -- but I've never seen anything that convinces me that Karajan really bought into National Socialism as a philosophy, that he deeply believed in fascism, was grossly anti-semetic, etc.  In my opinion, if we accuse Karajan of any sins during this period, it should primarily be for putting his musical career above all other concerns.  Simply put, if you wanted to get ahead socially and career-wise in late 1930s Berlin, you needed to sign up as a Nazi.  Karajan coveted a high-profile musical career above all else (you don't reach the heights he did without driving ambition), so he set ethics aside and took the plunge.  There are plenty of legitimate and very troubling moral arguments that can be made about the choices that he and many other people in the period made, but to basically ignore the achievements of all of those people for the rest of their lives is to miss a large swath of German and indeed world culture, and for me that goes too far.  

All of which being said, I can totally understand and respect your side of the argument.   It's not an easy topic to discuss without careening into hyperbole -- glad to see that we're all playing nicely so far

[Oh foo, I've missed a bunch of replies while typing this.  I'll post it anyway, I guess...  ]

[Coopmv]

I can certainly understand where you're coming from, but I agree that it's an unfortunate decision.  For one thing, using that standard and rationale you'd need to throw out a lot of really good conductors -- Karl Bohm comes immediately to mind -- as well as many other musicians, artists, writers, and on and on.  More importantly, I'll admit that I haven't read extensively on the subject -- a bit of Richard Osborne's biography, and that's about it -- but I've never seen anything that convinces me that Karajan really bought into National Socialism as a philosophy, that he deeply believed in fascism, was grossly anti-semetic, etc.  In my opinion, if we accuse Karajan of any sins during this period, it should primarily be for putting his musical career above all other concerns.  Simply put, if you wanted to get ahead socially and career-wise in late 1930s Berlin, you needed to sign up as a Nazi.  Karajan coveted a high-profile musical career above all else (you don't reach the heights he did without driving ambition), so he set ethics aside and took the plunge.  There are plenty of legitimate and very troubling moral arguments that can be made about the choices that he and many other people in the period made, but to basically ignore the achievements of all of those people for the rest of their lives is to miss a large swath of German and indeed world culture, and for me that goes too far.  

All of which being said, I can totally understand and respect your side of the argument.   It's not an easy topic to discuss without careening into hyperbole -- glad to see that we're all playing nicely so far

[Oh foo, I've missed a bunch of replies while typing this.  I'll post it anyway, I guess...  ]

jwinter:  You made a very good case.  Tell this to Russian and Chinese artists who lived under their respective communist regimes and learned about what they had to do just to stay out of trouble while not necessarily getting ahead.  When one lived under dictatorship, one had to be politically correct to the nth degree.  I enjoyed reading Richard Osborne's book and certainly do not think he is a Nazi sympathizer.  He told the story as it was ...

[DavidRoss]

But you forgot about the Nazi salute Böhm was famous for ...

Gosh, you took that poke in the ribs well.  What are you, a grown up?

[Bulldog]

I respect your decision, but it is a very irrational and unfortunate one indeed.

Although I don't share SonicMan's views, they certainly are not irrational.  He's acting on a principle.  Besides, there are plenty of other conductors to enjoy. 

[imperfection]

Although I don't share SonicMan's views, they certainly are not irrational.  He's acting on a principle.  Besides, there are plenty of other conductors to enjoy. 

I think it is irrational. It's like saying "I'm not buying a Toyota ever, because the Japs killed my great-grandpa 60 years back."

Now that's just being foolish.

[Renfield]

Boy, if you think this was bad, you should try starting a thread about religion!
(Wait!  Maybe you did!)

Ha!

As far as the issue under discussion in this thread goes, BTW, I would think that if someone avoided any and every recording by any and every conductor associated with the nazi party, then and only then would they be justified in calling it a matter of principle.

Otherwise, it would be whimsy; and indeed, that could still justify one's choices, yet minus the (perhaps crucial?) 'ethical high ground'.

For anything else on Karajan himself, I'd think anyone so interested as to want to write things for or against his character could start with Richard Osborne's biography of the conductor, informed by archives, transcripts and research, before forming (much less crystallising) their views.


But this still has nothing to do with his recordings - which we could, for convenience, even ascribe to four different conductors, roughly one per decade, and discuss without ever mentioning who the man conducting was, or did in his life.

And that's is why I'm being so prissy about this: if it were four different people's Beethoven cycles we were comparing, or conducting approaches we were discussing, no one would be going ad nazium simply out of the convenience of having such a straw man present.

[DavidRoss]

You may be precocious, but you're still very young, as your hasty judgmentalism makes clear.  You, at least, have the capacity to understand and respect the principles underlying Dave's (Sonicman's) feelings on the matter, if you but make the effort with the open mind and generous spirit that I know lies in your heart.

[Dr. Dread]

It's a thread topic with baggage. Watch your head.

[SonicMan46]

Boy, if you think this was bad, you should try starting a thread about religion!
(Wait!  Maybe you did!)

David - LOL!    I'm even afraid to join those threads!    Just getting back on line for the evening - worked too long today (need to make a few bucks to buy more CDs, I guess!).

But, first let me APOLOGIZE to those who seemed to have been upset by my post of yesterday; my purpose was not to really criticize Karajan or others, but just to raise the issue of the influences of 'politics to music', and their possible effects on your purchases - I do own a handful of discs w/ Karajan and a number w/ Bohm; but for a former mid-western 'Christian' boy from Michigan who married a Jewish gal (quite happily), my attitudes & feelings have certainly been changed (and I'll spare all some of the details).

In retrospect, this might have made an interesting thread, but probably would have ended up like one of the religion discussions -    So, I'm whole heartedly sorry for the post - now back to discussing your favs for this 'interesting' conductor; and BTW, I've been driving Hondas & Camrys since the early 1980s -     Dave

[nut-job]

I do own a handful of discs w/ Karajan and a number w/ Bohm; but for a former mid-western 'Christian' boy from Michigan who married a Jewish gal (quite happily), my attitudes & feelings have certainly been changed (and I'll spare all some of the details).

Karajan himself also married a Jewish gal (1/4 Jewish at least).  My point is not to defend Karajan's character, as if anyone who had an admirable character could be successful in that business.  At least he was unpopular enough with the regime that he had to make himself scarce in Italy during the latter art of war, unlike some others whose associations with the Nazi's don't seem to come up.  When you listen to the funeral march in Karajan's performance of Beethoven's Eroica you get the impression that he learned something from the experience, unlike Richard Strauss, who could only bemoan the destruction of his precious opera house.
 

[Coopmv]

Gosh, you took that poke in the ribs well.  What are you, a grown up?

Why did you not come out and say HvK is the worst but instead wasted your time cobbling together that worthless list?   

[Harry]

For a change, those people who always find pleasure in raking up Karajan's political background, it would be much better if you sticked to listening to the music he gives us.
Those who are without sin throw the first stone...........

[DavidRoss]

For a change, those people who always find pleasure in raking up Karajan's political background, it would be much better if you sticked to listening to the music he gives us.
Those who are without sin throw the first stone...........

Some don't find it so easy to blithely dismiss his contribution to the torture and murder of millions of innocent men, women, and children for the sake of career advancement as simply "letting bygones be bygones."  It's not a matter of holding a personal grudge.  And it's not remotely like stoning an accused adulteress in Judea in 30 A.D.

Dave brought it up as a matter of conscience on what was then a new thread and then he dropped it.  Later he followed up by apologizing to those who might have been offended by his original post (which contained nothing offensive).  By bringing it up again and presuming to judge and chastise him, it is you who is casting stones in an effort to stir up a bucket of shit.

(Damn, I feel like M, calling you out on hypocrisy...but expressed more graciously, I hope.  )

[Harry]

Some don't find it so easy to blithely dismiss his contribution to the torture and murder of millions of innocent men, women, and children for the sake of career advancement as simply "letting bygones be bygones."  It's not a matter of holding a personal grudge.  And it's not remotely like stoning an accused adulteress in Judea in 30 A.D.

Dave brought it up as a matter of conscience on what was then a new thread and then he dropped it.  Later he followed up by apologizing to those who might have been offended by his original post (which contained nothing offensive).  By bringing it up again and presuming to judge and chastise him, it is you who is casting stones in an effort to stir up a bucket of shit.

(Damn, I feel like M, calling you out on hypocrisy...but expressed more graciously, I hope.  )

You seem to be devoid of even understand the simplest of words.
And you seem to be without sin, for you have stoned me with a accusation that holds no ground whatsoever.
Accusing me of hypocrisy on the Internet. Be a man and say that in my face, in real life, and I give you a answer you will long remember. 
You may PM me for my address and I will oblige you.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

At least [Karajan] was unpopular enough with the regime that he had to make himself scarce in Italy during the latter art of war...

Can you shed more light on this?

During the latter part of the war Italy was in the hands of the allies. Not to mention that long before allied liberation Italy had denounce its association with Nazi Germany and actually declared war on its old partner. 

So it's hard to think of Italy as much of a haven for Nazis at this point in the war.