The Karajan Legacy (recordings)

[SonicMan46]

I respect your decision, but it is a very irrational and unfortunate one indeed.

Oh, Imperfection, you fell into my trap too quickly - always tread the ground lightly! 

As already stated, I do own some Karajan music, not that much - there are so many other options, and I've found wonderful alternates!

I don't find the feeling 'unfortunate or irrational', and certainly not at my age! But the basis of the question is whether one may be influenced by composer's and/or conductor's means of producing music (regardless of what form) based on political situations - I've read dozens of books over the years and have been amazed of how these 'artists' pretty much try to adapt to the politics of their times; I guess the most recent 'reads' have related to the 20th century Russian composers, such as Prokofiev & Shosty, but many other examples could be chosen.  Throughout the history of Western music, the impact of the 'rulers' or whatever have influenced these musical types - how much, how important, and how your feelings may be altered is yet another matter?

Of course, my intention is not to interfer w/ those who appreciate Karajan and his efforts - he was popular, prolific, and a 'top seller' of music - may be my comments belong in another thread - sorry for the inconvenience - 

[Renfield]

Note to our dear moderators: I was aware of the existence of this thread, but this is exactly what I did not want to happen!

Notice the above discussion; and notice how much of it is (not!) about Karajan's recorded legacy, vs. what party he was in, whether he conducted with closed eyes, whether Böhm was a nazi, whether principle matters in collecting classical recordings, and so on.

Also, Bonehelm's original thread was about Karajan - vs. his recordings. I'd like a thread to discuss his recordings, without the NZDAP, vanity, hairstyles or assorted extra-musical issues being part of the discussion's premises, that's why I made the new thread, and entitled it as such. I would politely ask for the threads to be re-split, with the extra-musical content remaining in the present one.


My creating yet another Karajan thread is out of the question: yet I would enjoy having a dedicated place to discuss a wealth of recordings of music, good or bad, without the focus of the thread being about its conductor per se, even if he still is the common denominator.


Apologies for starting yet another useless Karajan-discussion, as this was not my intention. At all.

Nor was his to spawn them when he was recording music, I dare offer.

[DavidRoss]

Note to our dear moderators: I was aware of the existence of this thread, but this is exactly what I did not want to happen!

Boy, if you think this was bad, you should try starting a thread about religion!
(Wait!  Maybe you did!)

[prémont]

Klemperer, Otto
Klemperer

Who is the other Klemperer?

[Que]

Note to our dear moderators: I was aware of the existence of this thread, but this is exactly what I did not want to happen!

Notice the above discussion; and notice how much of it is (not!) about Karajan's recorded legacy, vs. what party he was in, whether he conducted with closed eyes, whether Böhm was a nazi, whether principle matters in collecting classical recordings, and so on.

With al due respect: these developments were already taking place before the merger of the threads.
Conclusion: any general thread on Karajan is bound to discuss Karajan and his recordings, and both threads did, so I merged them. A "clean" "recordings-only-thread" is an utopy I'm afraid.

Besides, the intention of Bonhelm was also to focus on the recordings:

I know Karajan is a highly regarded conductor (some say he's the best of his time, or even of all time) so I want to learn more about him. What should I look for in his recordings?

I guess history repeats itself, but I see no need to do that on separate threads.

Q

[Renfield]

You may be precocious, but you're still very young, as your hasty judgmentalism makes clear.  You, at least, have the capacity to understand and respect the principles underlying Dave's (Sonicman's) feelings on the matter, if you but make the effort with the open mind and generous spirit that I know lies in your heart.

I appreciate the previous and subsequent compliments greatly, but I was almost going to add a note in my post above on how what I said was not related to Dave's feelings in specific; I didn't because I was hoping it would not be understood as such a judgement, regardless.

It was a general statement of a general condition, which you are probably correct in that I am hasty to make, as a gesture; but surely you, at least, have the clarity of reasoning to also read my comment as a statement of logic, however hastily made.


Que,

I can't say I agree. Should we make the precedent for necessary ad hominem in Karajan threads a presupposed rule for the future?

I would still welcome, as was my intent, the possibility of two threads, in one of which a clear topic of "Was Karajan bad?" could be put up as a signpost - i.e. post all your Karajan complaints here - so that another thread can actually carry the serious discussion, which I believe to be both possible and fruitful, fan-value aside. As I tried to illustrate above, this is, independently of the person, a gigantic discography, and I would prefer to discuss it without German stormtroopers marching nearby*.

But, all that having been said, you are aware of my position on the authority of the moderators, and I will respect your judgement.



*If I offended any German members of the forum with this metaphor, I apologise.

It does mirror the level of my annoyance at not being able to consistently discuss a couple of hundred CDs in my collection because their conductor had a peculiar history. (And did he? What about Mengelberg, do we spam his threads, too?) This is an issue of principle for me too.



Edit: On a side-note, what I originally wanted for the other thread was for both the good and the bad aspects of Karajan's recorded legacy to be discussed, contrary to the common intent; but that is not something I would want to be fussy about. I just wish for one (1) thread that works!

[nut-job]

I respect your decision, but it is a very irrational and unfortunate one indeed.

You think that calling someone's opinion irrational and unfortunate is consistent with respect?   

[DavidRoss]

I would still welcome...two threads, in one of which a clear topic of "Was Karajan bad?" could be put up as a signpost - i.e. post all your Karajan complaints here - so that another thread can actually carry the serious discussion.  ...this is...a gigantic discography, and I would prefer to discuss it without German stormtroopers marching nearby

Have you considered ignoring posts that don't address topics that interest you, and focusing on the ones that do?

Regarding his discography:  When I was your age, back at the dawn of time, most classical records I bought featured either Herbie and the BP or Bernie and the Jets RCO--primarily because I knew that they were highly respected orchestras.  (I probably would have bought more Lennie/NYPO but Columbia vinyl wasn't as good as Philips & DGG.)  Over time, as I was exposed to other recordings with other conductors and orchestras, I came to regard Haitink as bland and Karajan as heavy handed.  I learned that one thing I really responded to in orchestral music is instrumental color, which the "bland" RCO had but which Karajan's thick strings washed out.  The other thing that put me off to HvK is that his recordings rarely seemed fun, but rather always seemed serious, as if emphazing that classical music was important, weighty stuff--ponderous, rather than light and sparkling and playful and lively.  (Hearing the BP turn on a dime for Ozawa in their Proky cycle opened my eyes to just how good the BP was if given the chance to show it.)

Nevertheless, though in most of the standard, Germanic repertoire that was HvK's staple I've moved on to other conductors and orchestras (and have discovered that Haitink's old RCO recordings still sound pretty good to me and not at all bland), there are some works in which I think Herbie's tops, or at least darned close.  Records of his that I especially treasure include the Strauss Four Last Songs with Gundula Janowitz, the Rosenkavalier with Schwarzkopf, Carmen with Price, Cavalleria Rusticana with Bergonzi, the Dvorak Cello Cto with Slava, and the Bruckner 4th and 7th (all 3!).

From this list I surmise that Bruckner may be the composer whose music is most suited to Karajan's heavy, serious style--at least, according to my sensibilities.  I know I was sure surprised when his Bruckner clicked with me better than any other I'd heard.  As for the rest of the list, it's probably telling that the music is all vocal (if we include Slava's singing cello!), from which I might deduce that, at least with some singers and other soloists (i.e. Mutter, for instance?) he had a gift for working with them and supporting them with his orchestra.  As further support for this notion I could offer some other opera recordings by him that seem to me about as good as any, but they're not treasured because I don't really like the operas that much!

[Renfield]

Have you considered ignoring posts that don't address topics that interest you, and focusing on the ones that do?

That is a very good point, which - were I not so stuck up on certain matters - I would do well to follow. That age might redress, one day. 


Thanks for the rest of your post, as well! Very interesting. I'm most intrigued by your thoughts on Karajan's "seriousness", as I'd never considered his recordings from that angle; probably because I was listening for what I wanted to hear - in this case, seriousness!

And that might well be a good explanation for why Karajan could only ever seem to deal with the Mozart symphonies convincingly (at least IMO) by turning them into something exceedingly serious*; whereas with the more inherently introspective pieces, like certain Divertimenti, it would follow from this reasoning that he would be on much more comfortable ground (as certainly 'sounds the case').

*See: Symphonies Nos. 40, 41 on EMI, ca. 1970.

[Bulldog]

I can't say I agree. Should we make the precedent for necessary ad hominem in Karajan threads a presupposed rule for the future?

I would still welcome, as was my intent, the possibility of two threads, in one of which a clear topic of "Was Karajan bad?" could be put up as a signpost - i.e. post all your Karajan complaints here - so that another thread can actually carry the serious discussion, which I believe to be both possible and fruitful, fan-value aside.

You're living in dream-land if you think that you can mandate the content of any thread you initiate.  For better or worse, Karajan's character and ethics are always in the picture, so don't expect it to stop.   

[Renfield]

You're living in dream-land if you think that you can mandate the content of any thread you initiate.  For better or worse, Karajan's character and ethics are always in the picture, so don't expect it to stop.   

I can't mandate the content. I (that is, anyone who creates a thread) can mandate the topic. If the topic is a) Karajan's character, then that's the topic. If the topic is b) Karajan's recordings, his musical produce, then that is the topic; and a different topic than a).

No one said anything about not discussing Karajan's character at all, however!

Just not necessarily in the same thread as the recordings, as if the two topics of discussion were inherently conjoined. That was also the reason I entitled the thread "The Karajan Legacy", with the intended emphasis on "Legacy". It's the music that's of the most interest to the present ( Great Recordings and Reviews) forum, I'd reckon! The other issue is General Classical Music Discussion, technically.


(As an aside, the issue of the Karajan threads has already been resolved privately, in terms of coming up with a plan for it. )

[Bulldog]

I can't mandate the content. I (that is, anyone who creates a thread) can mandate the topic. If the topic is a) Karajan's character, then that's the topic. If the topic is b) Karajan's recordings, his musical produce, then that is the topic; and a different topic than a).

You only initially mandate the topic.  Let's say the topic is "Karajan's character".  Post # 4 only talks about Karajan's conducting skills and favorite recordings.  As the initiator of the thread, what are you going to do about it? 

[ChamberNut]

I'd like a thread to discuss his recordings, without the NZDAP, vanity, hairstyles or assorted extra-musical issues being part of the discussion's premises

You mean, we cannot post pictures of lizards and talk about the comparisons and contrasts of lizards to Karajan     



Carry on!  0:)

[imperfection]

Has anybody seen the 1988 Tchaikovsky piano concerto video on Sony classics (the one with Kissin)? The final chord of the finale is so rich and powerful that when I first heard it I couldn't believe it was possible for such a huge orchestra to play with such a smooth and sonorous blend. Hear it for yourself here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ig-r8Gu5RzU&feature=PlayList&p=E9D8B4F60CDE2B83&index=4&fmt=18
Hint: You might want to watch this from 5:52 onwards, then you get to see Kissin's double octaves.

[Renfield]

Has anybody seen the 1988 Tchaikovsky piano concerto video on Sony classics (the one with Kissin)? The final chord of the finale is so rich and powerful that when I first heard it I couldn't believe it was possible for such a huge orchestra to play with such a smooth and sonorous blend. Hear it for yourself here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ig-r8Gu5RzU&feature=PlayList&p=E9D8B4F60CDE2B83&index=4&fmt=18
Hint: You might want to watch this from 5:52 onwards, then you get to see Kissin's double octaves.

I've long been considering buying the DG disc of the soundtrack to that video. It certainly sounds like the rare Kissin disc I might enjoy somewhat!

(Although I think I'll still go for the Zimerman Grieg/Schumann piano concerto disc, first.)

[DavidRoss]

Why did you not come out and say HvK is the worst but instead wasted your time cobbling together that worthless list?   

It's called H-U-M-O-R (Or, if you're English and thus congenitally unable to spell, H-U-M-O-U-R) 

[George]

Just wanted to ensure that I get notification on this newly merged thread. One of the drawbacks tom merging them is that notification stops.

Speaking of notification, DavidRoss, you have mail. I have fixed my inbox.

[dirkronk]

Who is the other Klemperer?

Has to be Otto's boy Werner. You know, Col. Klink from Hogan's Heroes. As I recall, he did a bit of baton waving now and again, following Pop's footsteps, after the sitcom bit the dust.

OTOH, I'm truly sad that the list didn't include Cantelli, Reiner or Stokowski. And if the "second half of the century" hadn't been specified, I would have campaigned for Mengelberg. Wait...was Van Beinum on there? No Mitropoulos, either!

Semi-outraged Dirk

[DavidRoss]

I figured as much, Harry. Naturally, you would be the first one that would come to mind if I did so.  

Ouch!  but brilliant!

[George]

Ouch!  but brilliant!

I was serious actually, I consider Harry a friend and I am aware of his appreciation of Herbie's work.