Weird, and sort of sad...

[Gurn Blanston]

During my recent stay in the hospital, I had what I thought was an odd experience, and one that speaks about the state of classical music these days.

I brought along my MP3 player with a little set of plug-in external speakers so I wouldn't have to deal with headphones (which I learned about the difficulties on my last trip). The first couple of days I just set it next to my bed on that little rolling table and played through the entire Beethoven sonata cycle by Badura-Skoda. I had several nurses during that period, and they each and all stopped and listened to the music (seemingly enjoying it).

Finally, one of them asked me "what, are you a professor over at the university?"

And I replied "no, just a working man, why?".

And she said "well, I couldn't imagine anyone else who would listen to music like that". 

This exchange kind of bothered me. These were educated, professional women, most of them were more educated than me, actually. And they had fallen prey to the idea of elitism in classical music. That's the first time I've had this sort of experience, and it continues to bother me. Are we that out of touch?






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Listening to:
Schubert: Fortepiano Works - Lambert Orkis - D 946 #2 Klavierstück  in Eb for Fortepiano - Allegretto

[Bogey]

Unfortunate indeed....however, your playing of this music may have planted a classical music seed in one of them and they may be shopping for some on Amazon right now. 

[bhodges]

I alternate between thinking frustrating thoughts precipitated by incidents similar to yours, and more positive ones when I see venues like Carnegie Hall packed, often with younger listeners.  (Granted, New York probably skews the survey with all the thousands of concertgoers running around here.)

But for every experience like yours, I observe others that are more hopeful.  On a trip to Paris, a colleague at my office stumbled into a little church where someone was performing the Bach Cello Suites.  He is not particularly classically inclined (more Joni Mitchell), had never heard the pieces before, and couldn't stop talking about the experience and how wonderful it was.  Then he bought a recording (Starker, IIRC, and not sure which one  ).

But I can empathize with those times--I think all classical listeners run into it at some point--when you think you're the only person who likes it.

--Bruce

[alkan]

During my recent stay in the hospital, I had what I thought was an odd experience, and one that speaks about the state of classical music these days.

I think it says more about the state of civilization these days .....

With classical music you have to put some effort in to get something out.     You also have to be in-tune with the idiom in order to "speak the same language as the composer", otherwise the sounds don't communicate anything.    For example I LOVE orchestral and instrumental music, but I have never really acquired a taste for opera      

Many people also have pretty short attention spans, and can just about cope with an iPod tune.    I have noticed that over the years my local classical radio station has transitioned from playing whole works to individual movements (and the shorter the better).

The next dark age is approaching      

[Gurn Blanston]

Ah, Bill, always an optimist. Good to know you.

I suppose I have been a bit sheltered, since this is my first experience in 20 years of this sort of thing. And maybe it isn't the falling down of ALL civilization, perhaps it's just a reflection of East Texas, which was never very high to start with... 





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Listening to:
Schubert: Fortepiano Works - Lambert Orkis - D 946 #1 Klavierstück  in eb for Fortepiano - Allegro assai

[Que]

Gurn, in the eyes of outsiders we are not just listening to just any music, but we are listening to art.
And the thing is....they are actually right. Only we perceive art (in this case in musical form) as something that is essential and indispensable in our lives, they see it as something they do not understand, and thus "elitist", regrettably.

Q

[alkan]

And maybe it isn't the falling down of ALL civilization, perhaps it's just a reflection of East Texas, which was never very high to start with... 

EAST TEXAS !!!!     Man, that's even worse than AUSTRALIA.      You should have told the nurses it was Country and Western but your speakers were garbage.       Yeeeeeee-haw.      Grab your partner, swing her round, she'll just love, that Beethoven sound ......

Anyway, take care and make sure that Dubya doesn't find out what you have been doing ...............

[karlhenning]

It's just a good job you weren't listening to Elliott Carter, Gurn, or the nurse might not have been so . . . reticent.<sup>(1), (2), (3)

(1)</sup> Not that I've ever known any nurse to be less than polite.
⁽²⁾ Nor that I've ever known any Texan to be less than polite.
⁽³⁾ Except perhaps at the expense of a resident of Oklahoma.

[Brian]

Finally, one of them asked me "what, are you a professor over at the university?"

And I replied "no, just a working man, why?".

And she said "well, I couldn't imagine anyone else who would listen to music like that". 

Well, if by any chance this exchange took place in Houston, then as a student "over at the university"   I can assure you most of my professors are obsessed with Bob Dylan music of the '60s counterculture movement.

I think part of the problem is that classical music's organizing figures are convinced that it is an elitist field. So many of them go around saying "we have a permanent market share of 2%" or "it takes so much education and blah-de-blah to get people to like classical music" or "kids these days will never listen to classical without music classes in elementary schools" or "well, we want people to be introduced to Mozart first because he's the best" or (thanks to Eric) "nobody these days likes romanticism" or other excuse-laden garbage. Because that's what they are doing: narrowing down the potential audience (aiming lower) and making excuses (aiming even lower still). As Benjamin Zander asks record industry bigwigs, "How would you walk, how would you talk, if you believed that everybody loves classical music?"

And, naively, I hold out hope that everybody does - that, again quoting Zander, "There are two kinds of people: those who love listening to classical music, and those who just haven't found out yet." We here at GMG could and have generated numerous anecdotal examples, from Bruce's Bach-loving friend to the story of the inner-city prison inmates moved to tears (also by Bach's Cello Suites), from Andy's conversion as a metal fan to my story about the black gangsta guys with earrings who love Shostakovich, from people who have been converted by movies like 2001: A Space Odyssey to teenage street kids in Northern Ireland during "the troubles" who were moved to tears by a Chopin prelude. What we need to do is embrace our accessibility, share the joy we derive from music, and most of all, be confident that everyone can love classical music - that nobody is "too dumb" for it.  

Tonight I'm going to see Gustavo Dudamel conduct the Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra of Venezuela, with eight other college-student friends, at least two of whom have never been to a proper orchestra concert before. Will be very interesting to see the average age of that audience...

[ChamberNut]

your playing of this music may have planted a classical music seed in one of them

That's a very important statement, Bill!  You have to plant that seed.  If they like what they hear, then they will look into it further, and see that it isn't elitist.

Classical Music is timeless, unlike pretty much all other music genres out there.

[karlhenning]

. . . again quoting Zander, "There are two kinds of people: those who love listening to classical music, and those who just haven't found out yet."

In other respects, Ben and I may have our differences.  But here is certainly the head of a nail he's hit.

[ChamberNut]

again quoting Zander, "There are two kinds of people: those who love listening to classical music, and those who just haven't found out yet."

That is wonderful quote, Brian! 

[bhodges]

Tonight I'm going to see Gustavo Dudamel conduct the Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra of Venezuela, with eight other college-student friends, at least two of whom have never been to a proper orchestra concert before. Will be very interesting to see the average age of that audience...

I'm betting that tonight you may witness a conversion or two.  Do report back, by the way!

--Bruce

[Sorin Eushayson]

This exchange kind of bothered me. These were educated, professional women, most of them were more educated than me, actually. And they had fallen prey to the idea of elitism in classical music. That's the first time I've had this sort of experience, and it continues to bother me. Are we that out of touch?

I run into these people all the time.  Imagine me, a 20-year-old college student, walking around campus listening to Mozart; really fries the minds of my fellow classmates.  I recently pounded such ignorance in a speech I made for speech class; needless to say, I got some strange looks, but I hope I made my point.

[Gurn Blanston]

I run into these people all the time.  Imagine me, a 20-year-old college student, walking around campus listening to Mozart; really fries the minds of my fellow classmates.  I recently pounded such ignorance in a speech I made for speech class; needless to say, I got some strange looks, but I hope I made my point.

Yes, at least I fit the profile of an elitist a little better than you do.   Apparently, anyway....



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Listening to:
Schubert: Fortepiano Works - Lambert Orkis - D 946 #2 Klavierstück  in Eb for Fortepiano - Allegretto

[Superhorn]

  Yes, it's terribly unfortunate that the myth exists about classical music being stuffy,boring and elitist. And it has closed the minds of so many people.
  I guess the nurses just assumed that nobody by a professor of music would spend so much time listening to classical music.
  I'm always trying to encourage people i get to know to try classical music,and to listen to recordings,and give it a chance. I do a classical music program for residents at a nursing home in New Rochelle, just north of New York. I play all kinds of classical music for them,and they love it.But most hae already enjoyed classical music for many years.
I'm always trying to get more residents to come to my program, and in some cases I have, but other people just don't want to.
  Before I moved to Westchester county I lived on Long Island,and did a similar program at United Cerebral Palsy there, and I generally had a larger audience. Usually,I have between four to about a dozen here every Friday. I'm hoping to expand my programs elsewhere in Westchester county, and have been investigating the possibilities, possibly for the New Rochelle public library and others in the area.
  I also have a friend who doesn't like classical music,and who is always poking fun at opera, but he has never been to a performance,seen any on DVD,or listened to recordings. He actually thinks that if he goes to the opera,he'll see a bunch of ridiculous fat people in Viking costumes, with rich,bored people in the boxes,there for purely social reasons and to show off their fancy clothes.
  I tried to explain to him that that is nothing but a caricature, and that in fact,some opera singers are actually really good looking and svelte.
  He thinks the classic cartoons with Bugs Bunny spoofing opera are a blast.
  For whever said here that he or she can't seem to get into opera, I'd recommend listening to complete recordings on CD which come with the libretto in the original language plus an English translation next to it.
  This way, you know exactly what they are singing about and can follow the action closely. Also, most operas on DVD have English subtitles which you can access through the menu. 
  Not all CD recordings come with these, particularly the budget versions which have been reissued. But you can also download translations of operas from naxos.com. Keep trying,and you may get to love opera after all.
 

[Cato]

Well, if by any chance this exchange took place in Houston, then as a student "over at the university"   I can assure you most of my professors are obsessed with Bob Dylan music of the '60s counterculture movement.

I think part of the problem is that classical music's organizing figures are convinced that it is an elitist field. So many of them go around saying "we have a permanent market share of 2%" or "it takes so much education and blah-de-blah to get people to like classical music" or "kids these days will never listen to classical without music classes in elementary schools" or "well, we want people to be introduced to Mozart first because he's the best" or (thanks to Eric) "nobody these days likes romanticism" or other excuse-laden garbage. Because that's what they are doing: narrowing down the potential audience (aiming lower) and making excuses (aiming even lower still). As Benjamin Zander asks record industry bigwigs, "How would you walk, how would you talk, if you believed that everybody loves classical music?"

And, naively, I hold out hope that everybody does - that, again quoting Zander, "There are two kinds of people: those who love listening to classical music, and those who just haven't found out yet." We here at GMG could and have generated numerous anecdotal examples, from Bruce's Bach-loving friend to the story of the inner-city prison inmates moved to tears (also by Bach's Cello Suites), from Andy's conversion as a metal fan to my story about the black gangsta guys with earrings who love Shostakovich, from people who have been converted by movies like 2001: A Space Odyssey to teenage street kids in Northern Ireland during "the troubles" who were moved to tears by a Chopin prelude. What we need to do is embrace our accessibility, share the joy we derive from music, and most of all, be confident that everyone can love classical music - that nobody is "too dumb" for it.  

Tonight I'm going to see Gustavo Dudamel conduct the Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra of Venezuela, with eight other college-student friends, at least two of whom have never been to a proper orchestra concert before. Will be very interesting to see the average age of that audience...

Let's make one thing clear:

Bob Dylan SUX EGGS!      As the kids chant at the games: "OVER-RATED!"

Brian: that Venezuelan youth orchestra is something else.  I have seen their "YouTube concerts" and they are unbelievable! 

Members may recall that part of my mission as a teacher is to spread classical music among my students, even though I teach things only tangential to music (Latin, German, History).  The reaction has usually been positive, and I know I have created a few classical music listeners.

To be sure, my career has mainly been in Catholic schools, where I have found a more open-minded atmosphere than the public schools I have taught in.  Perhaps the nurses are victims of a narrow-minded upbringing.

Mocking the supposed elitism of classical music goes back decades: the Marx Brothers A Night at the Opera predates the Bugs Bunny satires.  And since classical music used to be more expensive to hear than the local fiddlers in the barn, and was an urban experience, one can see how it became "rich people music."  With class-warfare rhetoric popular in the Depression, classical music was collateral damage.  And yes, I know that there were all kinds of attempts "to bring classical music to the people" and that e.g. Copland's politics would seem to belie elitism.

And yet the evidence abounds: most people think classical music is above them.  Believing their own biases, they keep the attitude of e.g. Gurn's nurses alive.

To paraquote, not paraquat, John Lennon: "All we are aaaaasking, is give Palestrina a chaaaance!"   0:)

[Dr. Dread]

Let's make one thing clear:

Bob Dylan SUX EGGS! 

I hope you're kidding.

[Dundonnell]

Well, if by any chance this exchange took place in Houston, then as a student "over at the university"   I can assure you most of my professors are obsessed with Bob Dylan music of the '60s counterculture movement.

I think part of the problem is that classical music's organizing figures are convinced that it is an elitist field. So many of them go around saying "we have a permanent market share of 2%" or "it takes so much education and blah-de-blah to get people to like classical music" or "kids these days will never listen to classical without music classes in elementary schools" or "well, we want people to be introduced to Mozart first because he's the best" or (thanks to Eric) "nobody these days likes romanticism" or other excuse-laden garbage. Because that's what they are doing: narrowing down the potential audience (aiming lower) and making excuses (aiming even lower still). As Benjamin Zander asks record industry bigwigs, "How would you walk, how would you talk, if you believed that everybody loves classical music?"

And, naively, I hold out hope that everybody does - that, again quoting Zander, "There are two kinds of people: those who love listening to classical music, and those who just haven't found out yet." We here at GMG could and have generated numerous anecdotal examples, from Bruce's Bach-loving friend to the story of the inner-city prison inmates moved to tears (also by Bach's Cello Suites), from Andy's conversion as a metal fan to my story about the black gangsta guys with earrings who love Shostakovich, from people who have been converted by movies like 2001: A Space Odyssey to teenage street kids in Northern Ireland during "the troubles" who were moved to tears by a Chopin prelude. What we need to do is embrace our accessibility, share the joy we derive from music, and most of all, be confident that everyone can love classical music - that nobody is "too dumb" for it.  

Tonight I'm going to see Gustavo Dudamel conduct the Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra of Venezuela, with eight other college-student friends, at least two of whom have never been to a proper orchestra concert before. Will be very interesting to see the average age of that audience...

Great post

[Gurn Blanston]

Let's make one thing clear:

And yet the evidence abounds: most people think classical music is above them.  Believing their own biases, they keep the attitude of e.g. Gurn's nurses alive.

Yes, this at least jibes up with my own experience. I have had many people over the years say "I'm not smart enough to listen to that music".   I always ask "well, do you like what you hear?" And they say "yes", and I reply "Well, so what's to understand? All you have to do is like it, you don't need more than that. "   




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Listening to:
Missen (Compleet) - Franz Josef Haydn - Hob 22 14 Harmoniemesse pt 3 - Credo