Weird, and sort of sad...

[Dundonnell]

Yes, I can understand that People do develop new interests-and indeed should do-throughout life and there is no reason to believe that such interests, even if the partner has no similar interest, should automatically lead to divorce After all, many men are addicted to watching sport but their partners do not share that addiction

But tell me...are you equally tolerant when your wife wants to play ZZTop at full volume?

(Actually...I have to admit...their stuff is quite-how shall I say-'catchy'? )

[drogulus]

But understanding this music is so important, and it will only increase your appreciation and heighten the experience. 

Once you've stayed on the surface for a little while, this music will beg to be explored further.  At some point there is no more sitting on the fence and the music will prove a great discriminator.  If you want something you can't get on local FM radio, if you ever want to  be able to discuss and expand your taste, if you want to make new synaptic connections in the brain, YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THIS MUSIC!!!!!!!  Anything less is failure.  I can't stand the bourgeois 'just enjoy it' pap.  Knowledge is empowerment. 

     No, you don't need to understand music, discuss tastes or practice any other anti-"bourgeois" status signalling. I'm happy to leave all that social empowerment as an option for those who need it. The drive to understand is a personal one and has nothing to do with outmoded social/political classifications. The rise of mass art appreciation was certainly connected to the rise of an educated middle class. It could hardly be otherwise.

     There is something a bit odd about being an elitist about music and then not being able to stand that non-elites don't behave the same way. Isn't it part of the joy of climbing the mountain that you can look down on everyone in the valley? Why would you want everyone up there with you?

[Gurn Blanston]

Yes, I can understand that People do develop new interests-and indeed should do-throughout life and there is no reason to believe that such interests, even if the partner has no similar interest, should automatically lead to divorce After all, many men are addicted to watching sport but their partners do not share that addiction

But tell me...are you equally tolerant when your wife wants to play ZZTop at full volume?

(Actually...I have to admit...their stuff is quite-how shall I say-'catchy'? )

Oh, sure I do. That's what we listened to together 20 and more years ago. When we go on long road trips (which is not infrequently) we listen to classic rock stations all along the route. Since it is relatively rare for me, I don't consider it an imposition, especially since I know it will be over soon and I can get back to what I like.



----------------
Listening to:
Schubert: Fortepiano Works - Lambert Orkis - D 935 #2 Impromptu in Ab for Fortepiano - Allegretto

[Kullervo]

I don't consider it an imposition, especially since I know it will be over soon and I can get back to what I like.

That's a very good mindset.

When I worked at Tower Records a few years ago, I would get so angry and annoyed when my co-workers would play crap I didn't like. Now it wouldn't bother me so much, because I know I have my CD collection full of music I love waiting for me at home. It's like having your own secret hiding place nobody knows about.

[SonicMan46]

I am very surprised to learn that many members have wifes who have no interest in and indeed appear to hate classical music. I know that Jeffrey(vandermolen) has to smuggle cds into his house to avoid trouble from his wife but this seems to be a wider problem

I cannot imagine living with someone who did not share my taste in music or at least being open to persuasion......which is why perhaps I have never married

Well, LOL!    May be best for you to stay un-married for your own health! 

Next year, I will have been married 40 yrs (MY GOD!) - my wife, Susan, is extremely talented musically - she was a member of several college vocal groups (Brown University in Rhode Island & U. of Chicago), plus has belonged to a number of groups in our home town of Winston-Salem, NC; she sings beautifully, pretty much has 'perfect pitch', and plays numerous instruments (many of which I've posted pictures of in various threads here) - now your question is whether she enjoys my playing of classical music?  Well, that has been an argument of contention for us - she loves the pleasant chamber music, but is pretty much intolerable to the LOUDER options (whatever they may me?) - I have some 'wireless' headphones, so often need to decide when to use them!  Now, she gladly attends local concerts (even of the same music she complains about @ home - may be just the social issue?).

Now, I've often wondered why a person w/ so much 'natural musical talent' hates to listen to classical music @ home - we've not come to a good compromise explanation - I guess the best comment is that 'listenting' vs. 'performing' is different to someone who is pretty much @ a professional level - I can't relate to this as a 'poor' teenage accordion player.  But the bottom line is don't expect your future spouse to enjoy music at the same level of intestity that you may - Dave 

[Frumaster]

     No, you don't need to understand music, discuss tastes or practice any other anti-"bourgeois" status signalling. I'm happy to leave all that social empowerment as an option for those who need it. The drive to understand is a personal one and has nothing to do with outmoded social/political classifications. The rise of mass art appreciation was certainly connected to the rise of an educated middle class. It could hardly be otherwise.

     There is something a bit odd about being an elitist about music and then not being able to stand that non-elites don't behave the same way. Isn't it part of the joy of climbing the mountain that you can look down on everyone in the valley? Why would you want everyone up there with you?

Look, my views are not crafted from elitist attitudes even though I can understand how you would misinterpret them as such.  Because of my own strong convictions, I simply want others around me to develop their appreciation of great music.  Then we can have meaningful or at least interesting discussions beyond "I like so and so" and "its good".  Thats the primary reason I come to this forum and try to learn new things every day.  Its a shame that I am unable to converse with others that I know personally due to their lack of education on the subject.  Many of them are very bright and well-educated otherwise.  But this common notion of "just listen and enjoy" is stunting their growth and limiting their potential for music appreciation. 

[DavidRoss]

Do you remember if the AtlantaSO was one of the 7? 

In response to earlier posts, I think we can all recognize that a substantially large portion of Americans are culturally degenerate.  Look at TV programming, Hollywood, the music business, education, the drug epidemic, etc.  This may be a broad statement, but of course there are many exceptions...and I think many members here are indeed exceptions.  Yet I don't think its too brash to recognize that there are cultural factors  working against appreciation of high art. 

Atlanta did not make the list.  Nor did Philadelphia, Pittsburg, Cincinatti, Baltimore, or Dallas.  But LA did...go figure!  (Salonen's high profile, I expect.)  I doubt that Americans are any more culturally degenerate than most nations and I don't think it's too chauvinistic to recognize that there are many cultural factors working toward appreciation of high art in America--arguably the nation which has contributed the most toward the arts in the post-War era.

Here's the Gramophone list:
1. Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, Amsterdam
2. Berlin Philharmonic
3. Vienna Philharmonic
4. London Symphony Orchestra
5. Chicago Symphony Orchestra
6. Bavarian Radio Symphony
7. Cleveland Orchestra
8. Los Angeles Philharmonic
9. Budapest Festival Orchestra
10. Dresden Staatskapelle
11. Boston Symphony Orchestra
12. New York Philharmonic
13. San Francisco Symphony
14. Mariinsky Theatre Orchestra
15. Russian National Orchestra
16. Leningrad Philharmonic
17. Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra
18. Metropolitan Opera Orchestra
19. Saito Kinen Symphony Orchestra
20. Czech Philharmonic

[Gurn Blanston]

Look, my views are not crafted from elitist attitudes even though I can understand how you would misinterpret them as such.  Because of my own strong convictions, I simply want others around me to develop their appreciation of great music.  Then we can have meaningful or at least interesting discussions beyond "I like so and so" and "its good".  Thats the primary reason I come to this forum and try to learn new things every day.  Its a shame that I am unable to converse with others that I know personally due to their lack of education on the subject.  Many of them are very bright and well-educated otherwise.  But this common notion of "just listen and enjoy" is stunting their growth and limiting their potential for music appreciation. 

Certainly it is. I understand that. All I'm saying is that everyone needs to start somewhere, and "listen and enjoy" is really the best place to start. They will get hooked, and afterwards the growth starts. Knowing myself, it may have been very predictable that I would do all I could to become an amateur music historian, but that would have never come about if I hadn't gone through the "listen and enjoy" phase first. I hadn't thought you were nearly as elitist as some, and I still don't, but when you reach my age, you realize that patience is requisite if you are going to turn on yourself and others to anything, especially something as rarefied as great music.



----------------
Listening to:
Schubert: Fortepiano Works - Lambert Orkis - D 946 #2 Klavierstück  in Eb for Fortepiano - Allegretto

[Frumaster]

Gurn, I understand your point.  But its a little hard for me to identify with because during my discovery process, I had an almost simulataneous urge to learn about what I was hearing.  Maybe I just had a very short 'listen and enjoy' phase before I completely immersed myself.  But if if works your way for more people, thats great so long as they eventually realize there is more to the story.

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn, I understand your point.  But its a little hard for me to identify with because during my discovery process, I had an almost simulataneous urge to learn about what I was hearing.  Maybe I just had a very short 'listen and enjoy' phase before I completely immersed myself.  But if if works your way for more people, thats great so long as they eventually realize there is more to the story.

Well, now it's MY turn to sound elitist: if they go through that phase and still like what they are listening to enough to carry on, then if they have any curiosity (read: intelligence) at all, they will bother to learn more. From nearly 6 years of being here every day, I have found that the underlying compulsion of 99% of all posters here is to satisfy that curiosity. The other 1% are equally divided between people who want to show off all they know and those who want to spam us with porn...



----------------
Listening to:
Schubert: Fortepiano Works - Lambert Orkis - D 780 #6 Moment Musicaux  in Ab for Fortepiano - Allegretto

[Jay F]

But if if works your way for more people, thats great so long as they eventually realize there is more to the story.

What, are you going to come to my house and take my CDs away if I don't sign up for one of your "More to the Story" classes?

[Cato]

Atlanta did not make the list.  Nor did Philadelphia, Pittsburg, Cincinatti, Baltimore, or Dallas.  But LA did...go figure!  (Salonen's high profile, I expect.)  I doubt that Americans are any more culturally degenerate than most nations and I don't think it's too chauvinistic to recognize that there are many cultural factors working toward appreciation of high art in America--arguably the nation which has contributed the most toward the arts in the post-War era.

Here's the Gramophone list:
1. Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, Amsterdam
2. Berlin Philharmonic
3. Vienna Philharmonic
4. London Symphony Orchestra
5. Chicago Symphony Orchestra
6. Bavarian Radio Symphony
7. Cleveland Orchestra
8. Los Angeles Philharmonic
9. Budapest Festival Orchestra
10. Dresden Staatskapelle
11. Boston Symphony Orchestra
12. New York Philharmonic
13. San Francisco Symphony
14. Mariinsky Theatre Orchestra
15. Russian National Orchestra
16. Leningrad Philharmonic
17. Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra
18. Metropolitan Opera Orchestra
19. Saito Kinen Symphony Orchestra
20. Czech Philharmonic

How many of the European orchestras would collapse without tax dollars supporting them?   0:)

To quote a German 18-year old from some years ago, who acted as spokesman for his 16-member exchange group from our Rhineland partner school, when I was playing Schoenberg's Gurrelieder in my German II class:

"Vee do not like ziss music."   

Obscene American rap crap was the Germans #1 choice in "music," and that was quite often the case for the 22-years I spent with German teenagers.  So "degeneracy" is quite alive in Germany and elsewhere!

[Frumaster]

What, are you going to come to my house and take my CDs away if I don't sign up for one of your "More to the Story" classes?

No, I would merely enlist you in a re-education camp. 

[Coopmv]

How many of the European orchestras would collapse without tax dollars supporting them?   0:)

To quote a German 18-year old from some years ago, who acted as spokesman for his 16-member exchange group from our Rhineland partner school, when I was playing Schoenberg's Gurrelieder in my German II class:

"Vee do not like ziss music."   

Obscene American rap crap was the Germans #1 choice in "music," and that was quite often the case for the 22-years I spent with German teenagers.  So "degeneracy" is quite alive in Germany and elsewhere!

It is very sad, isn't it?  The country that gave us JS Bach, Beethoven and many other great composers is now the country whose next generation cannot care less about its own cultural heritage and the essence of western civilization.  The American rap plays right up to the ADD younger American generations and has infected the rest of the world as well.    

[Frumaster]

How many of the European orchestras would collapse without tax dollars supporting them?   0:)

To quote a German 18-year old from some years ago, who acted as spokesman for his 16-member exchange group from our Rhineland partner school, when I was playing Schoenberg's Gurrelieder in my German II class:

"Vee do not like ziss music."   

Obscene American rap crap was the Germans #1 choice in "music," and that was quite often the case for the 22-years I spent with German teenagers.  So "degeneracy" is quite alive in Germany and elsewhere!

Well, thats good to know.  Rap in the native language of listeners is also very popular in Europe from what I gather.  I have known a couple of people recently straight out of France and Poland, and they both brought me some rap CDs.  It was at least interesting to hear what words they could rap with that don't work in english.

[greg]

It is very sad, isn't it?  The country that gave us JS Bach, Beethoven and many other great composers is now the country whose next generation cannot care less about its own cultural heritage and the essence of western civilization.  The American rap plays right up to the ADD younger American generations and has infected the rest of the world as well.    

Shame...

[karlhenning]

Classic rock with heavy guitars and TV... and she abhors silence. If you put ZZ Top and Mozart out there together, she'd by on "Sharp Dressed Man" in a heartbeat...

When you step out, you're gonna do her in . . . .

[Bulldog]

I am very surprised to learn that many members have wifes who have no interest in and indeed appear to hate classical music. I know that Jeffrey(vandermolen) has to smuggle cds into his house to avoid trouble from his wife but this seems to be a wider problem

I cannot imagine living with someone who did not share my taste in music or at least being open to persuasion......which is why perhaps I have never married

Haven't you heard of the notion that "opposites attract"?

[Dundonnell]

Haven't you heard of the notion that "opposites attract"?

Of course I have They have never attracted me though

[jlaurson]

I am very surprised to learn that many members have wifes who have no interest in and indeed appear to hate classical music. I know that Jeffrey(vandermolen) has to smuggle cds into his house to avoid trouble from his wife but this seems to be a wider problem
I cannot imagine living with someone who did not share my taste in music or at least being open to persuasion......which is why perhaps I have never married

Ha!  Very droll. If she's supposed to be female, perhaps even attractive, and generally a pleasing human being (enough to spend a life-time sentence with), classical music obsession is the first thing to go among the requirements... otherwise we'd be fighting over the same pool of 7, 8 women. World-wide.


The best you can hope for is that they don't mind one's own, gentle missionary work and don't order you to turn Bach organ works off, Sunday morning.  In return, we