Weird, and sort of sad...

[Dr. Dread]

dylan a good poet? puh-lease....and to actually call his meandering mumbling "singing" haha...sad.

Are you a poetry expert?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/10/sunday/main648439.shtml

[Dr. Dread]

not an expert but i had to study a bit of it in university back in the day...dylan ain't no poet believe me, and i hate to say it but... their isn't much about music to him either.

What have you listened to?

[Diletante]

If all of a sudden classical music became popular, do you think the radio/MTV/etc. would put Haydn, Mahler and Stravinsky in heavy rotation? Or maybe they will play these:

Breakthrough soprano Britannia Spiralia and her new song "My first love", with lush string accompaniment, including a heart-touching violin solo.

Grammy-winning soprano Ashleya Simpsona and her new song "Please don't leave me", with lush string accompaniment, including a heart-touching violin solo.

Accomplished composer Eminemus and his new composition "Sensual sonata", including suggestive rhytmic percussion and a woman's moaning.

Famous soprano Beyonza and her new song "Don't ever come back", with lush string accompaniment, including a heart-touching violin solo.

[Superhorn]

  Snobbism exists on both sides. There may be SOME classical snobs, but I think most lovers of classical music aren't.They just love classical music. That's true of me.
  There's a myth and stereotype about rich,bored people going to the opera just to show off their fancy clothes and jewelry, who really aren't interested in opera at all. But the vast majority of the people who go to the opera go because they genuinely love opera,and are very much caught up in both the music and the drama. The same is true of audiences for orchestral concerts.
On the otherhand,there are some people who sneer at classical music as stuffy,boring and elitist, and who claim that it's"irrelevant" in today's world, and something hopelessly dated and which couldn't possibly be of interest to the"with it" people of today.
  And many of these people are totally ignorant of classical music;they just accept myths about it blindly.
  Some years ago,I saw a debate on PBS about whether the government should fund opera and classical music in America. There was an opera singer,and a Jazz critic who argued against it.
  Why? Because,he claimed, opera is a "European" art  irrelevant to Americans. And furthermore,he claimed, audiences for opera are just rich,snobbish people who go there to see and be seen, and to show off their finery.
  I wanted to throttle this ignorant and arrogant jerk. He was obviously totally ignorant of opera, and unaware that people go there because they really love it. And furthermore, he obviously knew nothing of the many operas that have been written by American composers,and successfully performed. This was nothing but reverse snobbism.
  All people have the right to enjoy whatever kind of music they like.
  There's nothing wrong with that. But they shouldn't be snobs whether they are fans of classical or Rock,pop,Jazz, Country, or whatever.

[Bunny]

Finally, one of them asked me "what, are you a professor over at the university?"

And I replied "no, just a working man, why?".

And she said "well, I couldn't imagine anyone else who would listen to music like that". 

This exchange kind of bothered me. These were educated, professional women, most of them were more educated than me, actually. And they had fallen prey to the idea of elitism in classical music. That's the first time I've had this sort of experience, and it continues to bother me. Are we that out of touch?






----------------
Listening to:
Schubert: Fortepiano Works - Lambert Orkis - D 946 #2 Klavierstück  in Eb for Fortepiano - Allegretto

I don't show my ipod to anyone anymore. 

I had dinner recently with someone who spent the evening trying to convince me that the greatest 20th century composer who ever lived was Nino Rota, who composed most of the score for the Godfather.  You should know that for most people, classical music is the orchestral music they hear in the movies.  You should have just told the nurses it was a movie score.

[jochanaan]

Yes, the masses at one time more or less worshipped Beethoven and Wagner...

Oh really?  I seem to recall from music history that both composers only got worshipped by said masses after they died...and only after considerable struggle from relatives and/or friends and/or younger colleagues...

[Gurn Blanston]

Oh really?  I seem to recall from music history that both composers only got worshipped by said masses after they died...and only after considerable struggle from relatives and/or friends and/or younger colleagues...

Don't know about Dirty Dickie, but that's true about Beethoven. He was "revered" as an icon, so to speak, but he was NOT loved for his music in his lifetime (except for Wellington's Victory, of course ).



----------------
Listening to:
Rotterdam PO / Zinman - Rimski  Korsakov Suite The Snow Maiden 1st mvmt - Introduction

[karlhenning]

Don't know about Dirty Dickie, but that's true about Beethoven. He was "revered" as an icon, so to speak, but he was NOT loved for his music in his lifetime (except for Wellington's Victory, of course ).

They applauded him at the premiere of the Ninth . . . might have been a succès d'estime, of course 

[jhar26]

Don't know about Dirty Dickie, but that's true about Beethoven. He was "revered" as an icon, so to speak, but he was NOT loved for his music in his lifetime (except for Wellington's Victory, of course ).

Well, if he was revered as an icon they must have appreciated his music. He may often have been controversial, but so was for example Stravinsky in more recent times, but he was nevertheless considered a very important composer during his lifetime also.

[Gurn Blanston]

Oh, he was esteemed, no doubt. And his peers and contemporaries realized that he was par excellence. However, his music was considered either hopelessly old-fashioned or else (after 1820 or so) the work of a madman. You can scarcely call this the adulation of the masses....   It was postmortem before he "enjoyed" the fame and appreciation that should have accrued to him in life.



----------------
Listening to:
Rotterdam SO / Zinman - Rimski  Korsakov Suite The Golden Cockerel 1st mvmt - Tsar Dodon in His Palace

[Szykneij]

I suspect mass-adoration was harder to come by in a time prior to television, radio, and recordings.

[greg]

If all of a sudden classical music became popular, do you think the radio/MTV/etc. would put Haydn, Mahler and Stravinsky in heavy rotation? Or maybe they will play these:

Breakthrough soprano Britannia Spiralia and her new song "My first love", with lush string accompaniment, including a heart-touching violin solo.

Grammy-winning soprano Ashleya Simpsona and her new song "Please don't leave me", with lush string accompaniment, including a heart-touching violin solo.

Accomplished composer Eminemus and his new composition "Sensual sonata", including suggestive rhytmic percussion and a woman's moaning.

Famous soprano Beyonza and her new song "Don't ever come back", with lush string accompaniment, including a heart-touching violin solo.

Lol 
'pop classical'...
what a nightmare...

[c#minor]

bob dylan blows, absolutely bottom of the barrel musicianship...the masses eat up all kinds of shit & glorify it like it's some huge musical deal.

I'm not trying to pick on you James but i have to respond to this one.

This is exactly what i am talking about. "Bottom of the barrel musicianship" "kind of shit". Who is anyone to say what's shit and what's gold? Dylan didn't come from the commercialized establishment and became popular. So by saying that people like Dylan and you "realize" it's shit you are therefor better or have far superior taste and sensibility than everyone else??? I hate Brittany Spears but i am not about to snob someone who likes it, different strokes for different folks.

[c#minor]

But the masses like him. That's usually not good...

Why is this bad?

[c#minor]

I have a feeling that many people here would be genuinely unhappy if the masses actually did enjoy classical music.

I completely agree, because then we wouldn't get to think of ourselves as so much more cultured than the rest of the world.

But think, if the masses did love classical music. Yes there would be stupid stuff, "classical pop", but with this huge influx of people there would be an influx of talent and new music. Kids wouldn't be practicing electric guitar, they would be picking up the cello or playing the piano. There would be "garage quartets". That would be amazing. We wouldn't have to go out to an isolated place on the internet to discuss what we love, it would be a part of the culture. Every city would have an Orchestra and every big city would have a great Orchestra.

Would that really be that horrible? Wouldn't it be worth it to have that kind of culture even if we would have to sacrifice feeling proud because we are "special"??

[c#minor]

Well, there's basically no way to tell whether or not that would be a good thing...

but, to me, it would sound like a good thing- just imagine being able to discuss composers with people you know, rather than having to go online. Also, imagine there being no problem for lack of funding with orchestras. Also, imagine young people being into composing future masterworks, maybe even some coming to be as great as the greatest composers of past. It would at least sound like a good thing to me...

Sorry i just realized that i completely reiterated this exact post.

[c#minor]

Popular music isn't 'the enemy.' People who listen to Mariah Carey wouldn't be listening to Beethoven if there wasn't any pop music - they would be listening to nothing whatsoever.

I agree with others that it's a pity that classical music isn't more popular with the masses, but having said that I have no doubt whatsoever that if there ever is another composer who becomes as popular as, say, Mozart or Beethoven that those same people who complain now about the lack of interest in classical music would argue that said composer is overrated or has sold out. 'Specialists' like to make fun of the masses for their poor taste in music, but they don't want them to get with it either - not really, because those specialists also like the idea that they know something more than the average guy.

You hit the nail on the head.

[c#minor]

Sorry I kind of hijacked this thread but I can't sleep and got nothing better to do.

The main thing is that I feel like we all want to share this music with people. We are willing to do this in theory but we still want to be on a "higher plain" than the everyday person. Many orchestras will have a free day of music at the hall and such but that's about as far as we will go. Why can't we just level with everyone? Why are most performances of classical music in an old fancy house or a recital hall (i don't expect orchestras to play at a bar or small venue)? Why can't we try to reach out? Music is for people to listen to, am i right?

So to sum all this rambling up.
I believe that we (the classical music community) will never grow unless we stop thinking of ourselves as better than other music communities. I you met someone and they acted like they were better than you, you wouldn't want to be around them anymore. We aren't going to grow till we stop acting like we know more than other people.

Just think about it.



I swear i'll shut up now...... maybe 

c#

[Florestan]

Kids wouldn't be practicing electric guitar, they would be picking up the cello or playing the piano. There would be "garage quartets".

Actually, I think the time frame 1850-1914 witnessed this. Music was part and parcel of the formal or not so formal education of both rich and poor, city-dwellers or country folks and there was no conflict whatsoever between "classical" and "pop". It was a time when Liszt was fascinated by Hungarian and Romanian fiddlers; when Johann Strauss jr. was one of the most ardent fans of Wagner; when Mahler inserted all sort of folk tunes and brass-band tunes in his symphonies; when the street organists or the porters played or whistled operatic arias; when each village boasted its own brass-band and when piano reductions of symphonies, concertos, chamber music and even operas were best-sellers.

It may not have been "the best of times" in other respects, but for the subject at hand I think it's a strong competitor.

[orbital]

Sorry I kind of hijacked this thread but I can't sleep and got nothing better to do.

The main thing is that I feel like we all want to share this music with people. We are willing to do this in theory but we still want to be on a "higher plain" than the everyday person. Many orchestras will have a free day of music at the hall and such but that's about as far as we will go. Why can't we just level with everyone? Why are most performances of classical music in an old fancy house or a recital hall (i don't expect orchestras to play at a bar or small venue)? Why can't we try to reach out? Music is for people to listen to, am i right?

So to sum all this rambling up.
I believe that we (the classical music community) will never grow unless we stop thinking of ourselves as better than other music communities. I you met someone and they acted like they were better than you, you wouldn't want to be around them anymore. We aren't going to grow till we stop acting like we know more than other people.

Just think about it.

I agree with you