Brahms VC

[hornteacher]

Britney Spears has also won a grammy award and sold many many times more records.  I guess that makes Britney Spears even better.  The people the made Hahn a best selling artist and Grammy winner are the ones that stare at her cute little boobs on the record covers, again very similar to the case of Britney Spears.

I wont play this game.  We'll just agree to disagree.

[Sergeant Rock]

I've never heard Britney in Brahms -- thought she was more a Prokofiev girl. Seriously, you make a good point. It is difficult to separate success due to extraordinary musical ability from success due to good ability plus a first-class publicity machine (plus, today, the essential possession of first-class boobs if you are a female violinist, pianist or singer).

Oh, come on, Harry. You know it's not difficult to separate the truly gifted musician from the merely hyped. All you have to do is listen to the artist. And since when did popularity suddenly become a cause for suspicion anyhow? Weren't Heifetz, Horowitz and Rubinstein great musicians?

I've seen Hahn three times: playing the Meyer, the Schönberg, and a recital of Janacek, Beethoven, Mozart, Tartini. Her range is extraordinary and her willingness to tackle the Schönberg, and play it better than anyone ever has (not only my opinion but the opinion of many critics all across Europe) more than proves she's the real thing.

There is often the reverse psychology at play here: some men, seeing a beautiful woman, can't see the talent for the beauty; or can't accept the fact a pretty woman might actually have brains and talent too. I suppose it's too threatening. There's also the possibility they simply don't like women. They could be chauvinists, misogynists, or swing for the other team.

I'm truly astonished how much hatred is aimed at female artists like Mutter and Hahn. I don't get it. Neither head-case nor op.110 made a case against these violinists. They just hurled abuse with no written justification. Troll-ish behavior.

Sarge

[head-case]

I'm truly astonished how much hatred is aimed at female artists like Mutter and Hahn. I don't get it. Neither head-case nor op.110 made a case against these violinists. They just hurled abuse with no written justification. Troll-ish behavior.

I have no disinclination towards female performers.  Mutter, who I have praised on this thread, I find fantastic and numerous female performers are at or near the top of my list of preferences.  However, when I have heard Hahn (in the Brahms concerto and in the Bach concerti) I found her playing to be worse than bad, technical flash with no expressiveness behind it.  I have never heard her live, but I find her recordings to be among the absolute worst available.  That she won a Grammy (presumably for best evening gown) is not relevant.

[MishaK]

I have no disinclination towards female performers.  Mutter, who I have praised on this thread, I find fantastic and numerous female performers are at or near the top of my list of preferences.  However, when I have heard Hahn (in the Brahms concerto and in the Bach concerti) I found her playing to be worse than bad, technical flash with no expressiveness behind it.  I have never heard her live, but I find her recordings to be among the absolute worst available.  That she won a Grammy (presumably for best evening gown) is not relevant.

I'm sorry, but you need to do a blind listening test (with someone neutral feeding you the listening samples). You are clearly not separating the musical from your own prejudices here. Whatever issues you may take with her interpretation (and it's really rather straightforward and unmannerred), your above description just doesn't describe her playing. Perhaps you ought to hear her live as it would dispel some of your prejudices. She is not glamorous or flashy at all to begin with, but very down to earth in person. I have heard her live now nine times (three recitals, Brahms, Meyer, Mozart, Goldmark, Stravinsky, Shostakovitch concertos) and hers is among the most natural and unpretentious musicmaking I have ever witnessed. It inspires the dullest most jaded orchestras that play with her.

[Que]

I have no disinclination towards female performers.  Mutter, who I have praised on this thread, I find fantastic and numerous female performers are at or near the top of my list of preferences.  However, when I have heard Hahn (in the Brahms concerto and in the Bach concerti) I found her playing to be worse than bad, technical flash with no expressiveness behind it.  I have never heard her live, but I find her recordings to be among the absolute worst available.  That she won a Grammy (presumably for best evening gown) is not relevant.

Ah, yes...
(Or were you referring to Hahn?  )



Q

[MishaK]

Ah, yes...
(Or were you referring to Hahn?  )



Q

Exactly. I can't believe someone who adores Mutter rips Hahn for supposedly getting gigs only for her visuals when she isn't half as glam as Mutter.

[head-case]

Exactly. I can't believe someone who adores Mutter rips Hahn for supposedly getting gigs only for her visuals when she isn't half as glam as Mutter.

Despite the enormous budget DG apparently allocates for Mutter's wardrobe of late, her playing overshadows her visuals (which are not spectacular, IMO). 

[MishaK]

Despite the enormous budget DG apparently allocates for Mutter's wardrobe of late, her playing overshadows her visuals (which are not spectacular, IMO). 

I beg to differ. I find that her playing has deteriorated in recent years (having heard her live on a number of occasions). Many of her interpretive twists seem completely whimsical and illogical. Nothing that I have heard of her recently compares to her landmark recordings from her youth.

[head-case]

I beg to differ. I find that her playing has deteriorated in recent years (having heard her live on a number of occasions). Many of her interpretive twists seem completely whimsical and illogical. Nothing that I have heard of her recently compares to her landmark recordings from her youth.

I am also mostly familiar with the landmark recordings from her "youth" and am not very interested in all of the highly touted "projects" of recent years.

[Rabin_Fan]

I beg to differ. I find that her playing has deteriorated in recent years (having heard her live on a number of occasions). Many of her interpretive twists seem completely whimsical and illogical. Nothing that I have heard of her recently compares to her landmark recordings from her youth.

Hear, Hear! I agree with O Mensch. The younger Mutter (and Vengerov) were better than their current selves. I did not buy the latest Vengerov too (Mozart 2, 4 & K364 as well as his LvB VC) for the same reasons.

[Sergeant Rock]

I beg to differ. I find that her playing has deteriorated in recent years (having heard her live on a number of occasions). Many of her interpretive twists seem completely whimsical and illogical. Nothing that I have heard of her recently compares to her landmark recordings from her youth.

I've heard her recently too and simply don't agree. Yes, her Tchaikovsky borders on the bizzare..okay, is bizzare  ...but nothing else I've heard, on record or live, deserves to be called a deterioration. A change of style, sure, and one either likes it or doesn't. She's become a very individual player. That will alienate many, I realize, but I love her individual take on the Brahms. I find it far more interesting than her performance with Karajan. Her self-conducted Four Seasons completely eclipses her earlier version with Karajan.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

I have no disinclination towards female performers.  Mutter, who I have praised on this thread, I find fantastic and numerous female performers are at or near the top of my list of preferences.  However, when I have heard Hahn (in the Brahms concerto and in the Bach concerti) I found her playing to be worse than bad, technical flash with no expressiveness behind it.

Okay. A case can be made that her Bach and Brahms lacks a certain expressiveness. Her Bach concertos are my least favorite Hahn performances (I vastly prefer Mutter here) and if her Bach were all I'd heard, I might agree whole-heartedly with you. But I've heard considerably more. I would just urge you not to give up on her. Listen to her Mendelssohn, Barber, Elgar, Meyer. If you enjoy Schönberg, I guarantee she's gonna blow you away next year.

Sarge

[MishaK]

I've heard her recently too and simply don't agree. Yes, her Tchaikovsky borders on the bizzare..okay, is bizzare  ...but nothing else I've heard, on record or live, deserves to be called a deterioration. A change of style, sure, and one either likes it or doesn't. She's become a very individual player. That will alienate many, I realize, but I love her individual take on the Brahms. I find it far more interesting than her performance with Karajan. Her self-conducted Four Seasons completely eclipses her earlier version with Karajan.

Haven't heard her in Tchaikovsky. I am basing what I said on hearing her live in NY a couple of years ago in Beethoven (Ozawa/BSO) and Brahms (Masur/NYPO). Bizzarre and individual can be interesting if there is a coherent and convincing interpretive thread. But I am missing that in her recent work.

Okay. A case can be made that her Bach and Brahms lacks a certain expressiveness. Her Bach concertos are my least favorite Hahn performances (I vastly prefer Mutter here) and if her Bach were all I'd heard, I might agree whole-heartedly with you. But I've heard considerably more. I would just urge you not to give up on her. Listen to her Mendelssohn, Barber, Elgar, Meyer. If you enjoy Schönberg, I guarantee she's gonna blow you away next year.

Or Sibelius, for that matter, which she will be recording with Salonen. I'd agree that her Bach concertos are, well, a bit tense and restless without being dramatic. But then again, nobody has bettered Francescatti here. I am rather fond of her clean and unpretentious Brahms. I don't find that one lacking at all. It's a different take, but viable in its own right. If anything is weak here, it's the orchestra. Having heard her play this live with Philly and Sawallisch, I know how much better this recording could have been with a more sonorous ensemble. BTW, I have a tape recorded off Dutch radio of a very fine 1999 recital of hers featuring, inter alia, a very fine rendition of one of the Brahms sonatas and the Debussy sonata.

[head-case]

I'd agree that her Bach concertos are, well, a bit tense and restless without being dramatic. But then again, nobody has bettered Francescatti here.

For the Bach, there's the Grumiaux, and there are all the rest...

[MishaK]

For the Bach, there's the Grumiaux, and there are all the rest...

In the concertos? Have you heard Francescatti? Grumiaux dies have very fine Sonatas and Partitas, but I haven't heard his Bach concertos.

[Sergeant Rock]

Haven't heard her in Tchaikovsky.

Well, when you do, that will confirm every negative thing you think about her. Me, the Mutter fanboy even has a hard time digesting it. It is fascinating, in a very perverse way. The Korngold it's coupled with withstands that ultra-romantic, ultra-mannered, vibrato-ladened style and survives...just barely

Sarge

[Bunny]

Okay. A case can be made that her Bach and Brahms lacks a certain expressiveness. Her Bach concertos are my least favorite Hahn performances (I vastly prefer Mutter here) and if her Bach were all I'd heard, I might agree whole-heartedly with you. But I've heard considerably more. I would just urge you not to give up on her. Listen to her Mendelssohn, Barber, Elgar, Meyer. If you enjoy Schönberg, I guarantee she's gonna blow you away next year.

Sarge

Don't forget her Berg which is my favorite.

[MishaK]

Don't forget her Berg which is my favorite.

Are you talking about Mutter now?

[Bunny]

Are you talking about Mutter now?

Yes.  It's hard keeping track of the "shes" in this thread. 

I loathe that dress.  And I loathe that picture, too.  And I tried to give away that set but it kept popping up like a bad penny.  Still, the  Mozart was well done for what it is, which isn't exactly (to say the least) to my taste as I prefer my Mozart more HIP than romantical. 

I do like Hahn, and also Suwanai who hasn't been discussed yet here.  Her Bach is excellent.  I'm also wondering if anyone has heard Julia Fischer's Tchaik concerto which has garnered quite a bit of critical acclaim.  It does seem to be ladies night here.

[op.110]

someone re-title this thread "mutter: bad... or terrible?" 

I agree, her Mendelssohn is very good, and probbaly one of the best takes I've heard of the piece.


But, having said that and in general, that vibrato of hers has got to be controlled! At times, her vibrato sounds too nervous. She's a very romantic player, and Sarge, I agree her playing is very unique. But sometimes unique is not always the best.