...please SQs me...

[some guy]

You know, it occurs to me that you would probably be able to enjoy quite a lot more music if you could get the serial=angst equation out of your head.

"But that's what I hear!" I can hear you saying.

No, that's what you think. And your thinking affects how and what you hear.

My evidence for that conclusion? That I can listen to any old serial piece without hearing or feeling any angst at all.

As for "grating," I'm pretty sure that's a code word for "what I don't like." But what if those sounds were indeed likeable? (They are liked, by other listeners. That much is clear.) Of course, you may never like them. There are lots of things I don't like, either. And possibly never will. But I don't try to expand my dislikes into some politically, morally, spiritually, culturally, intellectually comprehensive view of a world in unstoppable and terminal decay.

Again, if you can stop doing that, you will find that so so SO much more music is enjoyable and worthwhile, really you will.

[Karl Henning]

I sometimes think that he essentially lives for the hand-wringing.

[snyprrr]

You know, it occurs to me that you would probably be able to enjoy quite a lot more music if you could get the serial=angst equation out of your head.

"But that's what I hear!" I can hear you saying.

No, that's what you think. And your thinking affects how and what you hear.

My evidence for that conclusion? That I can listen to any old serial piece without hearing or feeling any angst at all.

As for "grating," I'm pretty sure that's a code word for "what I don't like." But what if those sounds were indeed likeable? (They are liked, by other listeners. That much is clear.) Of course, you may never like them. There are lots of things I don't like, either. And possibly never will. But I don't try to expand my dislikes into some politically, morally, spiritually, culturally, intellectually comprehensive view of a world in unstoppable and terminal decay.

Again, if you can stop doing that, you will find that so so SO much more music is enjoyable and worthwhile, really you will.

So, you have the Richard Wilson disc on CRI? Hey, at the price available, I'LL BUY you a copy! Seriously, don't we have to both have heard it to converse over it? As if not ONE? 'Serialist American University Composer from the '70s' lives up to the former criticisms? COME ON!

Humor me and tell me ONE COMPOSER you won't defend. I'm just not going to get into a 'breathing is music' discussion, aye.


Seriously, the Wilson SQ was talked up a bit (where ever I was on the net), and I WAS looking forward to it, but, hey, it lived up to NO expectations. There was NOTHING really of interest (WHAT is interest, you say?,... you know when you're missing it). And... you KNOW what I mean by 'hysterical, angst-y minor 2nds and diminished 5ths',... I mean, wasn't Abstract Expressionism SUPPOSED to sound angst-y? Wasn't that the point, to show extremes of emotion?

Seriously, I will buy you the Wilson disc, just so we can both have heard the same thing. I AM ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED that it won't become a great favorite of yours. Why won't you respect my ears, and applaud me for digging into... of all things... the dreary old CRI/NewWorld catalog, which, probably more than any single source, has more of this type of anonymous, grimy '70s 'University Music' than anyone. I HAVE found music that I would recommend heartily (Charles Jones SQ No.6, a perfect 'Bartok 3'), so, please, why won't you just, with humor, accept my 'reviews'? I mean, WHO ELSE in the universe cares soooooooooo much as to 'waste' their $$$ on such an endeavor as the CRI/NewWorld catalog simply to unearth Masterpieces for YOU'RE future enjoyment. All I do, I do for YOU!! ,.. the endless seeker/searcher,... so that you won't have to. I'm just doing a community service.

The fact is is there IS much more poop in the world than diamonds. THAT'S what makes diamonds so cool, their rarity. So to with Absolute Ultimate Genius (ok, ok, JdP ). Why do you chastise me for picking through the corpses to see if anything of value has been lost? I am constantly working hard to uncover any lost masterpieces (the Charles Jones being one of my prizes), not buying the things I probably should, simply to uncover the unknown. So, is there any surprise that there's some poop in the pile? I mean, EVERYTHING can't be diamonds, right? Something has to suck in order for something else to blow.

I sometimes think that he essentially lives for the hand-wringing.

No, I essentially live to uncover the Lost Masterpiece!!


Both of you, get the Richard Wilson disc and the Charles Jones disc, and THEN the three of us can actually TALK ABOUT THE MUSIC, instead of you guys ASSUMING that I'm just being a cheeky prick. You can't reeeeally believe that I would seriously DROP THE DUCATS for music I ALREADY KNOW I'm going to 'not respond to',... in THIS market??? Come on guys, WHO ELSE... in the UNIVERSE... is doing the community service I am doing here? I'm telling you you don't HAVE to get the Richard Wilson disc because I already have, and, applied the 'Cumulative GMG Conviction Meter' (meaning, I think of ALL of you, and calculate how many of you would respond to it), and found it LACKING. YES, I DIDN'T LET THE DISC INTO snypRRR's HEAVEN. I'M JUST A MEANY!! Boo hoo, snyprrr is like Jehovah, declaring the good from the evil, waaah, someone stop him.

Seriously, if I was God, I'd make you all have to spend eternity with that LaMonte Young oscillator. I mean, you guys seem to think all 'music' is valid, so, why shouldn't you all then spend eternity in the 'discarded music room' of heaven?

In other words, if everyone is 'saved' in the end, then you guys can hang in the room in heaven that houses Pol Pot, Idi Amin, and the rest of the equally 'saved' monsters.

Don't criticize me simply for using my God-given discretion. SG, I'm sure that if we hung out for the afternoon, I'm suuuure we could come up with a listening regiment that would bring us closer together instead of farther apart.

Just keep in mind: I'M the one that took the time with Richard Wilson. And, as is my wont, I listened with YOU GUYS in mind. "How can I be of service to Karl and SG? I know, I'll warn them against this new disc. Oh, they'll be so thankful, knowing that I spared them a lost hour (you won't either get the time back that it took to read this awful Post, haha,... goytha!! ).

ahhh, so misunderstood ...

[Karl Henning]

Thanks for taking one for the team, little fella!

[some guy]

OK, everyone. What you are about to read is longer and less humorous than Karl's post. Inferior in every way. But still, it might be of some use anyway, even in its prolixity and gravity. Well, see for yourselves.

snyprrr, of course we probably like some of the same things and dislike some of the same things. The odds are pretty good. And Richard Wilson might be one of those we agree on. (That's one of the few CRI discs I've never heard.) But what would that prove? Where we differ is somewhere else than on individual composers or particular styles, somewhere much more general and much more fundamental.

And that is that the conclusions you draw for yourself have any validity for anyone else.

Why won't you respect my ears, and applaud me for digging into... of all things... the dreary old CRI/NewWorld catalog, which, probably more than any single source, has more of this type of anonymous, grimy '70s 'University Music' than anyone. I HAVE found music that I would recommend heartily (Charles Jones SQ No.6, a perfect 'Bartok 3'), so, please, why won't you just, with humor, accept my 'reviews'? I mean, WHO ELSE in the universe cares soooooooooo much as to 'waste' their $$$ on such an endeavor as the CRI/NewWorld catalog simply to unearth Masterpieces for YOU'RE future enjoyment. All I do, I do for YOU!! ,.. the endless seeker/searcher,... so that you won't have to. I'm just doing a community service.

The ears I use to listen to music are my ears, not yours. I know that the bulk of posters to music threads want someone else to winnow for them, either a large group of anonymous (and deceased) winnowers (referred to by such phrases as "the test of time" or "general consensus") or fellow posters.

I'm not one of those. I'm interested in what people like and dislike, but not for the purposes of guiding my own listening, not unless I really know and trust a person's tastes and even then only for exploring things I might not have thought about, certainly not for shutting off opportunities before I've even had them! No I'd much rather spend my own money and my own time to explore what I don't already like, not to try to find things similar to what I already know I like.

Respecting or disrespecting your ears is not germane. And I don't do either. I listen only with my own ears. My advice to you was based on what I saw as a handicap you were putting in front of yourself. That getting rid of that handicap would open things up for you. Not respect or disrespect, but a general suggestion as to how to enjoy more things. 

The fact is is there IS much more poop in the world than diamonds. THAT'S what makes diamonds so cool, their rarity. So to with Absolute Ultimate Genius (ok, ok, JdP ). Why do you chastise me for picking through the corpses to see if anything of value has been lost? I am constantly working hard to uncover any lost masterpieces (the Charles Jones being one of my prizes), not buying the things I probably should, simply to uncover the unknown. So, is there any surprise that there's some poop in the pile? I mean, EVERYTHING can't be diamonds, right? Something has to suck in order for something else to blow.

This is not at all how I view the world. The world I perceive has much more variety in it, for one. Diamonds and garnets and gold and aluminum and trees and formica and toasters and cars and cities and meadows and people and birds and animals and and and and and. And one thing I've noticed about music anyway is that there's someone somewhere who likes any given thing that I dislike. Herbert Howe, for instance, who's right at the bottom of my list, and at the bottom of practically everyone else's list as well. But practically is not all. And there are some people who quite like Herbert Howe's music. Fabian Mueller's another. Why would I want to dissuade anyone from listening to their music, however? That's not who I am at all. I'm all about encouraging people to listen to more things, not shutting themselves off, not turning over the whole winnowing process to others--indeed, not making a big deal about winnowing at all. Of course there are things that I will dislike. Of course there are things that I will never like. It ain't no thing. It's the same for everyone.

You live to uncover the lost masterpiece; I live to listen to things I don't yet enjoy.

I ran across a quote several years ago that expresses my own orientation perfectly. It's by Morton Feldman: Down with masterpieces, up with art.

You're not misunderstood at all. You are very well understood. I just reject your world view is all.

[Karl Henning]

I like it.

[some guy]

 

[snyprrr]

I'm prescribing a steady diet of Spohr and Glazunov for you!!

Of course there's an infinite variety of serialist musics,... NOT!! You lost me at 'toasters'.

Surely you are much more critical when dispensing with your hard earned $$$ than you make out? Could there be a REASON why Wilson's is one of the few CRI you haven't heard?


I guess my 'thing' with you is that you seem to come off to me as if there's all the time in the world to explore every nook and cranny of.. everything... I mean, don't you HAVE to be discriminating when faced with such a mountain of choices? Don't you have to 'learn from others' mistakes' so that you don't 'waste' time on rabbit holes that won't ultimately yield true rewards?

This is how I do it: I just ran across the Stephen Demski disc on CRI. Looks interesting,... but... is it? No samples. Could I possibly, innocently, ask you what you 'think'? Isn't that allowed? And, would you simply 'make' me have to find out for myself, or, would you either warn me or recommend me? I mean, why do I sound like such a Scrooge in your estimation? I simply want to maximize every last ounce of allowable pleasure, so why should I be led to anything less than The Cream. Again, there can't be good if there's no evil, otherwise all things are equal,... and, dare I say, Richard Wilson is no Anton Webern. RW's music comes off as PURE EVIL when compared to the similar works by AW. There HAS to be some... something... here!! Discretion.

Richard Wilson, if you're dead, please forgive me for using your tiny little corner of a musical world as a whipping post for my point. Surely, if we had a long conversation, you would confess that you were caught up in serialist fever, and if you had it to do again you would have gone your own way.

Which brings me to this new point: that, most of the Academic Serialist Composers only were such because of FEAR of being laughed at for not writing 'god's music'. How many WOULD have pulled a George Rochberg if they had only had the GUTS? Where were the Ruggles and Ives personas outside of the US University Universe? A whole generation of Composers ended up writing serialist against their will (height of arrogance alert!!!).


I could SAY I'M EVERYTHING YOU SAY ABOUT YOURSELF.  (whhoops caps)... I listen for new stuff I don't like YET. It's just that there is a heaping helping of my drug of choice involved: disappointment. You're never disappointed?? I feel like you've taken the 'breathing is music' side, and, like Obama, you've gotten everyone to go along with this, while I sit here like a republican wondering wtf just happened. I mean,... LaMonte Young's oscillator,... seriously? It's how I feel in the face of the "any Mozart now played instantly becomes a Cage piece". I feel criminality here.

Frankly, as I continue this, all I can think of is libtard college professors spewing their musical social justice theories. "Breathing IS music"





Richard Wilson isn't even a real Composer name. COME ON!!!!!



ahhhh, I know your plan... you're trying to wear me down..... won't......uhhhh........happen.......SPLAT!!! Just admit that I'm right and we can settle this like men.

[snyprrr]

James to the rescue!! MY HERO!!!

[some guy]

Well, two things going on here, one a legitimate part of the conversation, one not.

For the first, we have a choice between listening for yourself and letting others decide for you what's good and worthy. Of course that's oversimpified. Of course one listens to one's friends and even to one's enemies. My point about all that was that taking suggestions for what to listen to are more useful than taking suggestions for what not to listen to. The first gives you options; the second closes things off. Philosophically, anyway. All this kerfluffle about Wilson, for instance, makes me want to listen to him now!!

For the second, we have taking sides. The music isn't important, the conversation isn't important, only which side you're on is important. The people who agree with you are good; the people who disagree with you are bad. And the commonest tactics here are the ad hominem and the straw man. Very tiresome, of course, but "Oh, well." None of us has to be here. So it's a huge improvement over the kindergarten squabbles it resembles.

[snyprrr]

All this kerfluffle about Wilson, for instance, makes me want to listen to him now!!

just an observation

OK guys, let's have one new String Quartet from each of you, perhaps something you've discovered recently that we can debut here and check out or talk about. I guess my choice has, err hmm, already been made.

Perhaps I made too much of a stink over that Wilson, someguy. It really is just mediocre serialist university music from 1982, not a particularly good vintage. Frankly, after I take one more listen, I'll be glad to send you both the Wilson and the Boatwright. Seriously! PM me if you're interested.

I AM interested in the Paul Cooper cd of String Quartets on CRI. He's another one exclusive to the label that I know nothing about, but the samples promised some mystery. Ugh, but it was available for pennies, and now it's up to $6,... SIX DOLLARS!!


So, with all our squabbles aside, what SQs have you been enjoying lately?

[Fëanor]

OK guys, let's have one new String Quartet from each of you, perhaps something you've discovered recently that we can debut here and check out or talk about. I guess my choice has, err hmm, already been made.
...
So, with all our squabbles aside, what SQs have you been enjoying lately?

Huh??  One SQ?  Well I've listened to a lot of Shostakich, but the one that stick out which isn't new to me but which I hadn't listened to in a few months, is ...

Leoš Janáček: String Quartet No. 1, Kreutzer Sonata

In this instance by the Skampa Quartet.

[some guy]

Yeah, following me around in every thread making snippy little personal attacks of me does take up a lot of your time, doesn't it? And energy, I'm sure. You must be exhausted.

You have a little rest now. Listen to some music, maybe. That'll calm you. Make sure it's great music, though!! Board-certified, grade A. Otherwise, you'll just be crabby again.

Sh sh sh. Sleep. Sleep little grasshopper....

[snyprrr]

snyprrr .. see the what are you listening to thread? ..

Make sure it's great music, though!!

MAKE NICE AND GIVE ME SOME SQs!!!!

James, if you don't give me an SQ, I'm going to have to assume that you chose a Cage work. someguy, if you don't give me one, I'm going to assume you chose Stockhausen.

We can continue the 'fun' later; now it's time for String Quartets!


Surely both of you can agree that Dutilleux's Ainsi la Nuit is one of the most beautiful modern expressions in any combination? Really, when I think about the last... 40!!! years (wow, the '70s ARE receding!!), this one still pops up as waaay more delicate than most things you here.


I can't think of an SQ 2009-12. Maybe Norgard?

[snyprrr]

Huh??  One SQ?  Well I've listened to a lot of Shostakich, but the one that stick out which isn't new to me but which I hadn't listened to in a few months, is ...

Leoš Janáček: String Quartet No. 1, Kreutzer Sonata

In this instance by the Skampa Quartet.

I hear that's the new recording of choice. Great piece, glad you like it!

[North Star]

I hear that's the new recording of choice. Great piece, glad you like it!

+1
And no. 2 is even better!
I've only compared the recordings from Spotify, but the Skampa recording is really great, as is the Janacek Quartet of no. 2 (on DGG)

[snyprrr]

Anyone have the Harald Saeverud SQs? Jon Liefs? Jan Carlsson?

[dyn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHXlghS88kY

i think he wrote 5 or 6 string quartets? maybe 7?

if you can find them all, anyway

[The new erato]

Anyone have the Harald Saeverud SQs? Jon Liefs? Jan Carlsson?

2 out of 3 ain't bad. Yes, yes and no.

[snyprrr]

How's things in your end of the String Quartet pool? I was looking over some notes, and this is what I have to ponder before me:

Holliger 2 (ECM 2cd w/LvB, Bruckner, & Hartmann)

Lachenmann 1-3 (take your pick of JACK, Arditti, or Stadler)
Sciarrino 1-8 (Kairos/Prometeo)

Rihm 11 (Wergo) ... others...

Feldman 2 (Mode or HatHut)
Ferneyhough (Neos... or is it Aeon???)

Harvey
Dusapin
Ruzicka

Birtwistle
Hosokawa (Wergo)
Nancarrow (Wergo)
Rouse


These are just the most obvious catch-ups for me. I'd be tempted to get all three Lachenmann's, but, ha, yea... that's not going to happen, is it? I consider Holliger, Lachenmann, and Sciarrino to be in the same boat, but, again, that's getting expensive. And who knows what astounding package is coming our way in the future?... I mean, that Ferneyhough set is like the grail here, is it no? mm, slake...

We have entered a time when a lot of the old Arditti discs are starting to become quite rare. How long will this Golden Age last?