Mozart's nationality

[Lethevich]

To discuss an argument in the composer index thread, which some may have missed.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

It was Earth first.

Still is.

[Wilhelm Richard]

(Said with tongue firmly panted in cheek)

If he is Austrian now, was he Third Reichian in 1938?  I do not think there can be an agreement based on later alterations to the map.
Probably best to call him a Holy Roman. 

[karlhenning]

Ostrogoth.

[Daverz]

At least we can all agree that he was a Delta Tau Chi alumnus.

[Renfield]

Ostrogoth.

(Or: If Salzburg claims Mozart, and Salzburg is in what we in the present historical period call Austria; and also Mozart was artistically represented in the region that we presently call Austria, then I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to fiddle with this convention.)

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I assume Mozart wouldn't have objected to being called either German or Austrian. The German-Austrian division didn't really become meaningful until Germany was unified (1870). In Mozart's time, Austria was just one of a number of "German states."

(BTW, do Belgians ever try to claim those great old Franco-Flemish composers as "Belgian"?)

[karlhenning]

Point, Spitvalve!

[Christo]

The main point is, that "nationality" isn't a useful concept for his situation and his time, the 18th century.

Nationality in the modern sense requires a nation state (I'm not talking about the older concept of a "nation", as in e.g. the "Jewish nation"). Around Salzburg, there was hardly such a thing as a nation state in operation before the 19th or even 20th century.

So, Mozart's "citizenship" was not directly related to the main state of his time, as the Holy Roman Empire didn't have such a concept. As a "citizen" Mozart belonged to the bishopry of Salzburg, as an employer he was also connected with the emperor and the empire, a.s.o. But no, no "nationality" yet.

[ChamberNut]

Universarian

[karlhenning]

Masonic.

[Opus106]

The (opposite) case could be raised for Mahler. He was born in a place which was at the time part of the Austrian Empire but which physically exists in the Czech Republic today. But Mahler is listed under Austria in the index.

How about Austro-Germanic, Austro-Hungarian, Bohemian... categories with duplicate entries for the ambiguous cases, just for the sake of completeness?

[karlhenning]

The (opposite) case could be raised for Mahler. He was born in a place which was at the time part of the Austrian Empire but which physically exists in the Czech Republic today. But Mahler is listed under Austria in the index.

Well, where is it widely known that he worked? . . .

[Opus106]

Well, where is it widely known that he worked? . . .

So now, Scarlatti, Jr. and Boccherini become Spanish?

[karlhenning]

So now, Scarlatti, Jr. and Boccherini become Spanish?

I oculd arguably press the point, as they are less widely known to have worked in Spain, than Mahler is known for his association with Vienna.

Many of the cavils mentioned in this thread are well taken.  I should think that one of the points established early on in this discussion is, that a rigid cookie-cutter approach to the matter is a non-starter.

I should think that this should be especially apparent in matters of 'nationality'.

(Bartók, by the way, is a Romanian composer.)

[ChamberNut]

(Bartók, by the way, is a Romanian composer.)

  Ok, I thought he was Hungarian?  Or Austro-Albanian, perhaps?

[karlhenning]

  Ok, I thought he was Hungarian?

He was born in a province called Banat (— and you know this is the perfect addition to this thread, when a paragraph in the Wikipedia article begins, The first known inhabitants of present day Banat were the Sarmatian Iazyges —) which is now partially in Romania, partially in Serbia, and the smallest part in Hungary.  The town of his birth is now called Sânnicolau Mare, and lies in Romania.

[karlhenning]

Sibelius was a Swede, naturally.  No Finnish name ends in -ius.  No Finnish name is accented on the antepenultimate syllable.

[Todd]

antepenultimate

Word of the day.

[jlaurson]

It's not a matter of polling, it's a matter of 1.) definition and 2.) opening a history book.

If you define nationality as being represented by or representing the political body that held legal authority over your birthplace (American way), then Mozart was Salzburgian.

Salzburg was not part of Austria during Mozart's life. He had to cross a border to get to Vienna. Before Salzburg was independent it was Bavarian, afterwards Austrian -- and lots of switching in-between. German nationality didn't exist until much later and the triple-misnomer Holy Roman Empire was long extinct. See Christo's point above.