Greatest 20th Century Symphonies

[Dundonnell]

I mentioned the Prokofiev and the Toch Symphonies: for Prokofiev, I find the Beethovenian construction of the Second, along with its wild, nonuple counterpoint, probably the best illustration of Schoenberg's dictum that there were still good possibilities in the future for works in C major!  With the Third Symphony, derived from one of the century's best operas, you receive the impact of that opera emotionally in 30 minutes.

I find the Toch symphonies a bridge between the super-compression of Webern and the unleashed id-monsters of Hartmann.  They are more spiritual than the latter, emotional in a more subtle way, but all are fairly short (most under half an hour) and modest in a Webernesque way.

Fascinating! I must confess that I had never looked at the Prokofiev 2nd in that way, tending to succumb to the aural assault and battery of the piece. I shall listen to it again!

As for the Toch...again, very interesting. I would agree that his symphonies are more emotional than those of Hartmann who can be rather dry and academic to my ears.

By the way....what is wrong with Ferde Grofe? His Grand Canyon Suite is good fun! He wasn't a symphonist anyway....was he?

[karlhenning]

Fascinating! I must confess that I had never looked at the Prokofiev 2nd in that way, tending to succumb to the aural assault and battery of the piece. I shall listen to it again!

Splendid, Colin!

As for the Toch...again, very interesting. I would agree that his symphonies are more emotional than those of Hartmann who can be rather dry and academic to my ears.

Well, I don't think any of the Hartmann that I have heard at all 'academic' . . . but he is (to echo a comment made lately on another thread) I find his music more Apollonian compared to Toch's Dionysian . . . .

[DavidRoss]

Fascinating! I must confess that I had never looked at the Prokofiev 2nd in that way, tending to succumb to the aural assault and battery of the piece. I shall listen to it again!

By the way....what is wrong with Ferde Grofe? His Grand Canyon Suite is good fun! He wasn't a symphonist anyway....was he?

The Prokofiev 2nd is one of the works I considered nominating as "great(est)."  I had the good fortune once to hear it performed by Gergiev and the Kirov (Mariinsky).  Such works well illustrate the inadequacy of recordings to convey the complete experience of musical performance, moreso I think for big orchestral pieces than for intimate chamber works.

Have you heard other pieces by Grofe? 

[Franco]

I listed the Milhaud 3rd because I simply like it and wanted to name some works that never appear on these kinds of lists for consideration.   But, I admit I violated the basis of this thread, which was asking for "not favorites" but the "Greatest" 20th Century Symphonies. 

[karlhenning]

I listed the Milhaud 3rd because I simply like it and wanted to name some works that never appear on these kinds of lists for consideration.   But, I admit I violated the basis of this thread, which was asking for "not favorites" but the "Greatest" 20th Century Symphonies. 

Hey, we're always conversational at GMG, and it isn't any serious breach of Compliance.  And your mention made me think, Much as I like the Milhaud cycle, is it . . . "great"?

[Cato]

Fascinating! I must confess that I had never looked at the Prokofiev 2nd in that way, tending to succumb to the aural assault and battery of the piece. I shall listen to it again!

As for the Toch...again, very interesting. I would agree that his symphonies are more emotional than those of Hartmann who can be rather dry and academic to my ears.

By the way....what is wrong with Ferde Grofe? His Grand Canyon Suite is good fun! He wasn't a symphonist anyway....was he?

For the Prokofiev Second, that is a not atypical reaction!    

But I have found that the work is like being inside of a clockwork soul: the grand emotions are being cranked out by giant gears, smaller ones by smaller, but there is a calm center (opening of the Second Movement).

No, thank heavens Grofe did not try his hoof at symphonies: donkey music was his forte!   0:)

[snyprrr]

Very difficult. All my favorites are sentimental. If I only had three on a desert island, I would have to choose syms. that would keep me occupied and learning, rather than ones I already know every note to (I guess unless it was irresistable). Judging by Van/Dun who between them must have every cd known to...them, haha!!...they have chosen fairly "standard" choices, so I must conclude that aaaaaaall those other symphonists in the "really really lesser known..." thread still haven't supplanted the giants that everyone is familiar with, maybe because the great ones are great BECAUSE of their "greatness." Well, it SEEMS to be true.
I certainly wouldn't pick Webern, HA! I could listen to it 144 times per day, haha...but seriously. Seeing that Van/Dun landed where they did, I feel more confident in (verrry tentatively...very) picking:

Pettersson 9, or 13... probably 13 because of the density

I'm at a loss...everything else is a "favorite" (Sib, DSCH, Harris, Honegger, Schuman, Sessions...any of the other heavyhitters...). The point being, those two Pettersson syms. are NOT neccesarily favs (oy, how could they be?) for "joy of listening", but are so overwhelming with "information" (as Pettersson would say) that it'll surely take you a good while to absorb (and hum, haha!). Still, they ARE "gnarly" favs!

Maybe just to conform to the thread rules I'll pick Pettersson 14 also! SO THERE!

[karlhenning]

For the Prokofiev Second, that is a not atypical reaction!    

But I have found that the work is like being inside of a clockwork soul: the grand emotions are being cranked out by giant gears, smaller ones by smaller, but there is a calm center (opening of the Second Movement).

Which has a particularly stunning effect, when it returns practically unchanged at the end of the cumulative variations.

[Lethevich]

If I held my breath and jumped off the Cliff of Objectivity into whatever hell lays below, I could perhaps admit that I consider Pettersson's 6th and 7th symphonies to be towering achivements

[karlhenning]

Thank goodness, Sara, you are speaking only figuratively here! 

[Dundonnell]

The Prokofiev 2nd is one of the works I considered nominating as "great(est)."  I had the good fortune once to hear it performed by Gergiev and the Kirov (Mariinsky).  Such works well illustrate the inadequacy of recordings to convey the complete experience of musical performance, moreso I think for big orchestral pieces than for intimate chamber works.

Have you heard other pieces by Grofe? 

Have I heard any other pieces by Grofe? Yes....the Mississippi Suite, the Niagara Falls Suite, the Death Valley Suite, the Hudson River Suite and the Hollywood Suite.

None of them is demanding music and none of them matches the Grand Canyon Suite for sonic spectaculars but each is attractive enough stuff. There is a place for this sort of 'light' classical music, I reckon.

[bhodges]

Haven't weighed in on the "three" question since honestly, I don't know how I would select three from the vast smorgasbord available.  How do you compare Webern's Symphony with the Mahler Eighth?

Anyway, my contribution today: I'm listening to Mark Elder and the Hallé Orchestra doing the Elgar First Symphony live on SymphonyCast (quite good, PS, from the Prague Spring International Music Festival).  In his introduction, the announcer referenced a comment by Shostakovich, who thought it the greatest symphony of the 20th century. 

I want to check some sources when I have time, but if true, most interesting coming from this particular source!

--Bruce

[Cato]

In his introduction, the announcer referenced a comment by Shostakovich, who thought it the greatest symphony of the 20th century. 

I want to check some sources when I have time, but if true, most interesting coming from this particular source!

--Bruce

Yes, where and when would have Shostakovich encountered the Elgar First outside of perusing a score?

I know he was allowed occasionally to visit the West: during which visit might this have happened?

[bhodges]

Yes, where and when would have Shostakovich encountered the Elgar First outside of perusing a score?

I know he was allowed occasionally to visit the West: during which visit might this have happened?

No further details were included, and I can't imagine, either!  Anyway, when I have time later I may do some digging.  (And PS, as I'm listening, I certainly like the piece a lot, but don't think I would ever have singled it out as the best of the entire century!)

--Bruce

[The new erato]

Though not necessarily belonging to a "greatest" list, I would like to mention Frank Martins particularly fine symphony, since everyone else seems to be mentioning their particular hobby horses.

If we concentrate on what I consider symphonies belonging to the 20th century instead of being leftovers from the previous one, my own list would be Shostakovich 4 (though there are a couple of other Shostakovich alternatives), Sibelius 4 and Vaughan Williams 6 (though this could just as well have been his 4th) .

[eyeresist]

For the best combination of form and feeling:

Prokofiev 3 (much underestimated) and 6
Vaughan Williams 4, 7, 8 (get the Thomson), and 9 if he'd lived to fix the finale
Sibelius 5

Possibly Hindemith if my Blomstedt set ever arrives; plus I've yet to get into Bax.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Mahler, 6th Symphony
Sibelius, 4th Symphony
Brian, 1st Symphony, 'Gothic'
RVW, 5th Symphony
Harris, 3rd Symphony
Pettersson, 15th Symphony
Nielsen, 6th Symphony
Elgar, 1st Symphony
Stravinsky, Symphony in Three Movements
Martinu, 5th Symphony
Tubin, 6th Symphony
Orthel, 2nd Symphony
Hartmann, 6th Symphony
Prokofiev, 6th Symphony
Shostakovich, 4th Symphony
Honegger, 3rd Symphony
Bax, 1st Symphony
Moeran, Symphony in G minor

and the list goes on...

[vandermolen]

For the best combination of form and feeling:

Prokofiev 3 (much underestimated) and 6
Vaughan Williams 4, 7, 8 (get the Thomson), and 9 if he'd lived to fix the finale
Sibelius 5

Possibly Hindemith if my Blomstedt set ever arrives; plus I've yet to get into Bax.

Agree about Prokofiev No 3. What's wrong with finale of VW No 9? I know that Boult asked him to add some music as he found the end abrupt, but I think that the first and last movement are towering achievements - it is a great score - would add Brian Symphony No 8, Moeran Symphony, Tubin No 4 (now I am subverting my own rules - never mind).

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Agree about Prokofiev No 3. What's wrong with finale of VW No 9? I know that Boult asked him to add some music as he found the end abrupt, but I think that the first and last movement are towering achievements - it is a great score - would add Brian Symphony No 8, Moeran Symphony, Tubin No 4 (now I am subverting my own rules - never mind).

Brian 8, Prokofiev 3 and Tubin 4 - yes yes yes.

[The new erato]

Am I alone in finding Stravinskys Symphony of Psalms his greatest symphony? Or don't we accept it as a symphony?