New system

[Harry]

It looks a little like slowly cruising in an expensive dealership car.

On audio forums this happens all the time, people quote unquote buying 50k equipment on a monthly basis.

So Herman what are you suggesting? That I pick up 50k equipment every month?
Or that by posting these pictures I am cruising dealership boulevard?
I have difficulty following and understanding your postings.

[Harry]

Dave - yes, I saw the price on those speakers yesterday while reviewing this thread - boy, Harry could have REALLY expanded his CD collection by buying a much less expensive set of speakers; but then, he might have to purchase a BIGGER house -  

Rebuilding it rather Dave
And believe it or not, there is little for me to buy concerning cd's. I have far too many.

[Herman]

Harry has fat pockets.

That's none of my business

[Dr. Dread]

That's none of my business

I made it your business, buster. 

[Bogey]

Harry,
Please report when you have the system up and running.  Though this system is out of my price range, I am fascinated with the sound it may be able to produce.  Would also like any insights of what you may have done with the room this system will be in to achieve the optimal sound.

[Harry]

Harry,
Please report when you have the system up and running.  Though this system is out of my price range, I am fascinated with the sound it may be able to produce.  Would also like any insights of what you may have done with the room this system will be in to achieve the optimal sound.

Of course Bill I will do.
But first complete the renovation of my listening room.

[Daverz]

Of course Bill I will do.
But first complete the renovation of my listening room.

As much as we like to tease you, Harry, please don't stop posting about the highfalutin equipment.  And I'd like to know about the room, too, and how it does with speakers that go down to 16Hz.

[SonicMan46]

As much as we like to tease you, Harry, please don't stop posting about the highfalutin equipment.  And I'd like to know about the room, too, and how it does with speakers that go down to 16Hz.

Well, we are ALL interested in the sound produced!    But, maybe Poju will 'chime in' on the 16 Hz question - my feeling is that it won't be heard, i.e. your body will just vibrate! 

[Valentino]

Not many recodings that have a lot to bring below 40Hz, but on those who do having that bottom octave there is a difference. E.g. the Gardiner SDG Christmas Cantatas from Manhattan. NYC right there in my living room!

[Fëanor]

Not many recodings that have a lot to bring below 40Hz, but on those who do having that bottom octave there is a difference. E.g. the Gardiner SDG Christmas Cantatas from Manhattan. NYC right there in my living room!

Quite true.  My main speakers go down to almost 40 Hz but roll off sharpely below that point.  When the occassional recording has content below 40 Hz, I simply don't hear it.  However, with my subwoofer, (a modest affair), I hear down to nearly 20 Hz.

Simply put, if the low frequency content is there, it' a huge improvement to actually hear it.

[Scarpia]

Quite true.  My main speakers go down to almost 40 Hz but roll off sharpely below that point.  When the occassional recording has content below 40 Hz, I simply don't hear it.  However, with my subwoofer, (a modest affair), I hear down to nearly 20 Hz.

Simply put, if the low frequency content is there, it' a huge improvement to actually hear it.

Anything below 32 Hz is not sound, as far as I am concerned.   But no audio transducer works well at the edge of its range.  If you want a speaker to work well at 32 Hz you want one whose frequency response extends somewhat beyond.    Frequencies this low are a visceral sensation which is not necessarily perceived as sound.

The lowest note on a bass violin is 40 Hz, sometimes extended to 32 Hz, although the fundamental is not most of what you are hearing.  Some organ ranks might go below this.    The other source is my main source of annoyance in the orchestra, the bass drum.  As far as I am concerned, it is just noise.  It is also the reason I stay away from Telarc recordings (especially early  ones) of anything that has a bass drum.  Renner and Woods were obsessed with extended bass response and their main criterion for choosing repertoire seems to be how much bass drum is used in the scoring.  
 

[Fëanor]

Anything below 32 Hz is not sound, as far as I am concerned.   But no audio transducer works well at the edge of its range.  If you want a speaker to work well at 32 Hz you want one whose frequency response extends somewhat beyond.    Frequencies this low are a visceral sensation which is not necessarily perceived as sound.

The lowest note on a bass violin is 40 Hz, sometimes extended to 32 Hz, although the fundamental is not most of what you are hearing.  Some organ ranks might go below this.    The other source is my main source of annoyance in the orchestra, the bass drum.  As far as I am concerned, it is just noise.  It is also the reason I stay away from Telarc recordings (especially early  ones) of anything that has a bass drum.  Renner and Woods were obsessed with extended bass response and their main criterion for choosing repertoire seems to be how much bass drum is used in the scoring.  

This might be just a tad unfair to Telarc.  But no more worries for you:  as I hear, Telarc will no longer be producing recordings now that it is owned by Concord Music Group.

Of course pipe organs have fundamentals as low as 16 Hz, I believe.

[Scarpia]

Of course pipe organs have fundamentals as low as 16 Hz, I believe.

Some go lower, I believe.  However the fundamental is not heard (although it may have be felt).  The note is perceived via the portion of the overtone series that lies in the audible band. 

[Valentino]

But the illusion could be closer to the real thing if the equipment (and the room it's in) could reproduce the whole freqiency spectrum (with adequate linearity of course).

[Scarpia]

But the illusion could be closer to the real thing if the equipment (and the room it's in) could reproduce the whole freqiency spectrum (with adequate linearity of course).

By definition reproduction is better of all frequencies are reproduced.  My feeling is that sub audible components are noise and I don't care to have them in the original performance either. 

[drogulus]

     I find that extending the frequency range from a low of 40-50 Hz down to 25-30 Hz has a huge effect on the way an orchestra sounds. It gives an orchestra much more of a live feeling, and the perception of fidelity goes way up. I think the crucial point is around 30 Hz.

[Lilas Pastia]

Into the work out room Dave.
And the system there will go into the kitchen, because there was no music system as yet.

Harry, I can save you the musical chair you are planning for all your systems: put the new one in the kitchen ! You can then take cooking lessons and spent more time listening to your new system. Don't thank me - you can't think of everything .

[Scarpia]

     I find that extending the frequency range from a low of 40-50 Hz down to 25-30 Hz has a huge effect on the way an orchestra sounds. It gives an orchestra much more of a live feeling, and the perception of fidelity goes way up. I think the crucial point is around 30 Hz.

I recently added a subwoofer to supplement that precise range.  The difference was noticeable in a few passage, but I wouldn't say in improved the feeling of fidelity of gave a distinctly "live" feeling.

[71 dB]

But, maybe Poju will 'chime in' on the 16 Hz question - my feeling is that it won't be heard, i.e. your body will just vibrate! 

16 Hz is pretty much the frequency area where the sound is sensed as vibration rather than heard. The threshold of hearing at 20 Hz is well over 70 dBs and raises rapidly as frequency lowers. At 16 Hz the sound pressure level must be at least 90 dB for any kind of hearing sensation. In fact, creating a tone of 16 Hz this loud without strong harmonic distortion is extremely difficult and if anything is heard it's the harmonics. Avalon says these speakers go from 16 Hz to 100 kHz (±1 dB anechoic). Don't believe that. There simply are not anechoic chambers where you can measure frequencies below 20 Hz this accurately. I measure loudspeakers in the best anechoic chamber in Finland and it stops being accurate (anechoic) around 70 Hz. I'm not saying this loudspeaker doesn't go down to 16 Hz (with two 13" drivers it's a possibility) but the frequency response isn't that flat (16-100000 Hz ±2 dB anechoic would be fantastic). If you see very flat frequency responcies, they are simply smoothed curves. Avalon Sentinel has got sharp edges for fancy design and those edges causes some diffraction making the response "not-so-flat". The power response (that is very important too for real life sound balance) can be very good thou.

The listening room will boost the lowest frequencies considerately so with Avalon Sentinal's it is somewhat possible to hear the 16 Hz in optimal situation. Much more important is the fact that for a speaker like this, frequency range 20-30 Hz is easy. Avalon Sentinel is of course an excellent speaker. What else do you expect from a $85k speaker? It's just that good sound belows to everybody and that's why loudspeaker manufacturers should concentrate on finding ways to get good sound for less money. $85k is too much, $8,5k is too much, $850 starts to be ok for people with normal incomes. Most people wouldn't spend even $200 for a pair of speakers!

[Harry]

When my listening room is ready, ( its rebuild into a professional chamber by a specialized firm) and the gear has sufficient time to adjust, me included, I will tell you how low it goes.
I will use the BIS recording with Cesar Frank's Organ music, a ideal reference recording for measurements.