Mahler was a gasbag

Started by lisa needs braces, July 01, 2009, 05:55:34 AM

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DavidW

#40
July 01, 2009, 09:18:05 AM
Well Bruce I also recorded the Nova show, if I'm still interested after that I'll read the book. :)

DavidRoss

#41
July 01, 2009, 09:28:12 AM
Quote from: DavidW on July 01, 2009, 09:18:05 AM
Well Bruce I also recorded the Nova show, if I'm still interested after that I'll read the book. :)
Sounds as if y'all would also be interested in this: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/musicinstinct/

as well as in Levitin's book:



This Is Your Brain on Music
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

snyprrr

#42
July 01, 2009, 09:35:39 AM
Don't let the ADL get a hold of this thread. $:)

DavidW

#43
July 01, 2009, 09:36:25 AM
Ah cool Dave, I might check 'em out!  Oh I see a very "helpful" review of This Is Your Brain on Music where over a hundred people think that it's insightful to nitpick a couple of faults. ::)  Speaking as a teacher, it's very hard even if you're an expert to prattle on about a subject for along time and not make a single mistake.  Even the most insightful textbooks on a subject will have many editions before all of the mistakes are removed.  Sorry, rant over. ;D

Josquin des Prez

#44
July 01, 2009, 10:01:07 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 01, 2009, 09:35:39 AM
Don't let the ADL get a hold of this thread. $:)

The ADL is too busy harassing Arizona lawmakers over anti-immigration laws:

http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=1184326

Sergeant Rock

#45
July 02, 2009, 06:53:35 AM
Quote from: -abe- on July 01, 2009, 05:55:34 AM
Why is he popular?

If you don't know, we aren't going to explain. The Supreme Order of Holy Mahlerites is an exclusive club. Unbelievers are shunned.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

DavidRoss

#47
July 02, 2009, 07:57:00 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 02, 2009, 06:53:35 AM
If you don't know, we aren't going to explain. The Supreme Order of Holy Mahlerites is an exclusive club. Unbelievers are shunned.
Even those who love but don't worship his music are admitted only to social functions open to the general public.  We never get to see them dancing naked with cowbells around the splendid Gustave Klimt art nouveau altar topped by a life-sized nude statue of Alma reclining while Gus hovers above, trapped between heavenly delights and earthly pleasures.  Sigh.  :-\
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Florestan

#48
July 02, 2009, 08:43:00 AM
I like Mahler but I'm afraid of Mahlerites...  ;D
"Beauty must appeal to the senses, must provide us with immediate enjoyment, must impress us or insinuate itself into us without any effort on our part. ." — Claude Debussy

marvinbrown

#49
July 02, 2009, 09:03:25 AM

 Oh God here I go again having to defend another composer's music.  Threads of this sort sadden me because they could discourage newbies to Mahler's music from ever exploring it. so here I go again...

 No Mahler is NOT a gasbag!

 No Mahler's music is NOT bloated and "too much"- DavidRoss are you and I ever going to agree on anything in this world??

 Yes Mahler's music IS heavily influenced by the Liszt/Wagner school of music but it is unique......much like Dvorak, Mahler infused his symphonies with ethnic (in Mahler's case Bohemian) motifs and themes, it is a joy to hear.

 so come on enough of these inane threads...........

 marvin

jochanaan

#50
July 02, 2009, 09:13:14 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 01, 2009, 08:26:34 AM
...To me, a great symphony, like a great novel or play or movie, should be so compelling and enthralling that it's over scarcely after it seems to have begun...
To some of us, that describes Mahler exactly. :D
Imagination + discipline = creativity

Florestan

#51
July 02, 2009, 09:17:03 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on July 02, 2009, 09:03:25 AM
   much like Dvorak, Mahler infused his symphonies with ethnic (in Mahler's case Bohemian) motifs and themes, it is a joy to hear.

Dvorak was even more of a Bohemian than Mahler, wasn't he?  :)
"Beauty must appeal to the senses, must provide us with immediate enjoyment, must impress us or insinuate itself into us without any effort on our part. ." — Claude Debussy

karlhenning

#52
July 02, 2009, 09:18:03 AM
FWIW, the 'lever' for me into Mahler (back in the deeps of time, as it now seems) was the Rückert-lieder, which are marvels of delicacy.

DavidRoss

#53
July 02, 2009, 09:31:20 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on July 02, 2009, 09:03:25 AM
 No Mahler's music is NOT bloated and "too much"- DavidRoss are you and I ever going to agree on anything in this world??

I certainly think there's hope for you, Marvin.  Unlike some of our more opinionated members, you have demonstrated the capacity to learn--though, as with all of us, thinking you already know severely inhibits the process.  ;)

I've quoted a passage from the post you're objecting to below.  If you clear your mind of prejudices and then read what I actually said, you will find at least two items of interest in relation to your complaint:

(1) I like Mahler.  I like him very much...so much, in fact, that I regard him as one of the supremely great symphonists.
(2) In the absence of universal aesthetic standards, I make quite clear that my opinion of Mahler's bloat is just that--opinion.  My opinion may be informed by relevant education and experience, but it is still only opinion and not some inviolate fact that can be confirmed or disproved by spectral analysis or appeal to the Oracle at Delphi.

Quote from: DavidRoss on July 01, 2009, 08:26:34 AM
Even though I love Mahler's music, ranking him unhesitatingly as one of my three favorite symphonists (with Sibelius and Beethoven) and among my dozen or so personal faves among all composers, I do not think he was the greatest of craftsmen and I believe that his symphonies suffer from bloat.  I understand that his late-Romantic aesthetic worshipped artistic self-indulgence and excess of all sorts.  I also understand that the dramatic scope of his symphonies owes more to opera than to the symphonic tradition, and that compared to a four-hour opera (especially one of Wagner's, Mahler's model in his youth) a ninety-minute symphony may seem downright pithy.  But in spite of understanding the underlying causes of what--to my personal aesthetic sense--is excess and bloat, I still think his symphonies suffer from it, insofar as it creates an impediment to their appreciation and enjoyment. 

I suspect that if you make a similar effort to recognize the distinction between your opinions and fact, you might discover that our views are not nearly so far apart as you presently imagine.   8)  And you might even discover some merit in the point of view I present.  ;D
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Florestan

#54
July 02, 2009, 09:40:24 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 02, 2009, 09:18:03 AM
FWIW, the 'lever' for me into Mahler (back in the deeps of time, as it now seems) was the Rückert-lieder, which are marvels of delicacy.

For me it was his Third --- which "back in the deeps of time" and on first hearing I valued above any of Beethoven's symphonies (I was a Beethoven fanatic at that time, mind you!)

"Beauty must appeal to the senses, must provide us with immediate enjoyment, must impress us or insinuate itself into us without any effort on our part. ." — Claude Debussy

marvinbrown

#55
July 02, 2009, 09:42:14 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 02, 2009, 09:31:20 AM


I suspect that if you make a similar effort to recognize the distinction between your opinions and fact, you might discover that our views are not nearly so far apart as you presently imagine.   8)  And you might even discover some merit in the point of view I present.  ;D

  Ok David I'll let you win this argument for now as I have bigger fish to fry  8)....namely, to get ALL Mahler newbies and those who are less inclined to explore Mahler's music to give this music a chance.  If I am able to change one negative perception I have served my purpose in this thread!

  marvin

Gurn Blanston

#56
July 02, 2009, 09:52:56 AM
Quote from: Florestan on July 02, 2009, 09:17:03 AM
Dvorak was even more of a Bohemian than Mahler, wasn't he?  :)

Truly, Dvorak was the epitome of Bohemianism. And not a gasbag besides. :)

8)
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

DavidRoss

#57
July 02, 2009, 09:53:25 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on July 02, 2009, 09:42:14 AM
  Ok David I'll let you win this argument for now as I have bigger fish to fry  8)
Your graciousness knows no bounds.  0:)
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Bulldog

#58
July 02, 2009, 09:55:35 AM
Quote from: -abe- on July 01, 2009, 05:55:34 AM
Why is he popular?

A rather dishonest question not rating a serious reply.

Florestan

#59
July 02, 2009, 09:58:58 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 02, 2009, 09:52:56 AM
Truly, Dvorak was the epitome of Bohemianism. And not a gasbag besides. :)

8)

...and I'll have him over Mahler anytime.  ;D
"Beauty must appeal to the senses, must provide us with immediate enjoyment, must impress us or insinuate itself into us without any effort on our part. ." — Claude Debussy
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