Puccini's Tosca

[Coopmv]

Tosca, anyone?  This is supposed to be one of the top recordings.  I only have it on LP ...

[Tsaraslondon]

Tosca, anyone?  This is supposed to be one of the top recordings.  I only have it on LP ...

Since when? Most people would place Karajan's earlier recording with Price, much higher in a list of recommendations. I'd still place the old Callas/De Sabata recording at the top of any list, but if stereo is a must then the Price/Karajan will certainly do very nicely. Other recommendable versions would include Caballe/Davis and, for a modern digital alternative, Gheorghiu/Pappano.

[Wendell_E]

What Tsaraslondon said (though I haven't heard the Caballé/Davis version).  I received the LPs of the DG Karajan not long after its release as a premium from our public radio station, but only listened to it once.  Great cover, anyway.    

[Coopmv]

Since when? Most people would place Karajan's earlier recording with Price, much higher in a list of recommendations. I'd still place the old Callas/De Sabata recording at the top of any list, but if stereo is a must then the Price/Karajan will certainly do very nicely. Other recommendable versions would include Caballe/Davis and, for a modern digital alternative, Gheorghiu/Pappano.

When the LP-set first came out, I thought I read some raving reviews ...

[Tsaraslondon]

When the LP-set first came out, I thought I read some raving reviews ...

The reviews weren't bad, certainly, but I don't seem to remember then raving about the set. However, as so often, the set hasn't stood the test of time.

[marvinbrown]

Since when? Most people would place Karajan's earlier recording with Price, much higher in a list of recommendations. I'd still place the old Callas/De Sabata recording at the top of any list, but if stereo is a must then the Price/Karajan will certainly do very nicely.

  Sorry Coopmv but I am in total agreement with Tsaraslondon on this one.  The Karajan/Price recording remains the top choice for me. That said I have yet to hear Callas/De Sabata  .  I consider Tosca the perfect verissimo opera. The darkest (in terms of musical texture) of Puccini's operas and Karajan/Price do it justice!   Oh yeah a stereo recording suits my ears quite well!

  check it out, definitely worth a listen!

   

  marvin

[Coopmv]

The reviews weren't bad, certainly, but I don't seem to remember then raving about the set. However, as so often, the set hasn't stood the test of time.

Buddy, you and I are on different sides of the pond and I did not and still do not read music reviews published in the UK.   

[Tsaraslondon]

Buddy, you and I are on different sides of the pond and I did not and still do not read music reviews published in the UK.    

Whereas I am nowhere near so partisan in my reading. I often read American publications, and one of my bibles is The Metroplitan Guide To Recorded Opera. This second Karajan recording gets a very bad review from the American critic, Conrad L. Osborne. Mind you, he's not particularly enthusiastic about Karajan I either. His comparative critique, written before the release of the Gheorghiu/Pappano recording,  comes down firmly in favour (or would you prefer favor?) of Callas/De Sabata.

[Tsaraslondon]

  Sorry Coopmv but I am in total agreement with Tsaraslondon on this one.  The Karajan/Price recording remains the top choice for me. That said I have yet to hear Callas/De Sabata  .  I consider Tosca the perfect verissimo opera. The darkest (in terms of musical texture) of Puccini's operas and Karajan/Price do it justice!   Oh yeah a stereo recording suits my ears quite well!

  check it out, definitely worth a listen!

   

  marvin

Marvin, I'm in shock. How can you not have heard Callas/De Sabata, by common and worldwide consent, one of the greatest opera recordings ever made? One of those rare occasions where everything came together to create a recording that has maintained its classic status for more than 50 years. I might not place it at the top of a list of great Callas recordings (IMO she is shown to much better advantage in the operas of the bel canto), but I would certainly rank it as one of the greatest opera recordings ever made.

[DarkAngel]

Marvin, I'm in shock. How can you not have heard Callas/De Sabata, by common and worldwide consent, one of the greatest opera recordings ever made? One of those rare occasions where everything came together to create a recording that has maintained its classic status for more than 50 years. I might not place it at the top of a list of great Callas recordings (IMO she is shown to much better advantage in the operas of the bel canto), but I would certainly rank it as one of the greatest opera recordings ever made.

I also much prefer the mono Callas/EMI Tosca........I have both Price/Karajan and later Price/Mehta Tosca and although we have beautiful vocals and lovely performances the emotional intensity does not even scratch the surface of Callas, Maria literally lives and breathes the hopeless despair of Tosca and makes us hang on every line, this is a true GROTC (great recording of the century) an essential opera performance

[Slezak]

  The Ricciarelli Tosca was one of von Karajan's misguided ideas toward the end of his career, placing unsuited voices in roles that they shouldn't be doing. The cover photo is perhaps the highlight of the release, but it sure isn't in the running for top recording of the work. The Callas/Di Stefano is justly famous...the second recording with Di Stefano & Price is pretty decent, but Di Stefano was getting pretty shot by this time. Taddei was always a good Scarpia.

[knight66]

Yes, some of Karajan's later re-recordings were not successful. Trovatore with L Price was not a patch on his earlier version, ditto Rosenkavalier.

I very much enjoy his earlier Tosca, superb sound of the time, Leontine Price is excellent, but not in that detailed and penetrating way of Callas. She recorded it twice for EMI, although there are a couple of moments of extraordinary vividness in the later set, Callas was in better voice for the earlier discs and the overall performance is top notch.

The Colin Davis version with Caballe is dramatic, but it really is not her role. She could perfectly sing heavy parts, but versimo requires a different vocal quality beyond heft or richness of tone. She sounds a fish out of water.

The Pappano version is I think excellent with excellent singing and acting. I like it a lot, but put de Sabata first. No one equals the sweep of Act 2 like he did.

Mike

[marvinbrown]

Marvin, I'm in shock. How can you not have heard Callas/De Sabata, by common and worldwide consent, one of the greatest opera recordings ever made? One of those rare occasions where everything came together to create a recording that has maintained its classic status for more than 50 years. I might not place it at the top of a list of great Callas recordings (IMO she is shown to much better advantage in the operas of the bel canto), but I would certainly rank it as one of the greatest opera recordings ever made.

I also much prefer the mono Callas/EMI Tosca........I have both Price/Karajan and later Price/Mehta Tosca and although we have beautiful vocals and lovely performances the emotional intensity does not even scratch the surface of Callas, Maria literally lives and breathes the hopeless despair of Tosca and makes us hang on every line, this is a true GROTC (great recording of the century) an essential opera performance

  The Ricciarelli Tosca was one of von Karajan's misguided ideas toward the end of his career, placing unsuited voices in roles that they shouldn't be doing. The cover photo is perhaps the highlight of the release, but it sure isn't in the running for top recording of the work. The Callas/Di Stefano is justly famous...the second recording with Di Stefano & Price is pretty decent, but Di Stefano was getting pretty shot by this time. Taddei was always a good Scarpia.

  Alright alright I get it..... enough already!!!!  I need to get my hands on that Callas/Di Stefano recording even if it kills me.  Is everybody happy now!!!!  I don't know how a great recording like that had slipped my radar.........

  marvin

[Tsaraslondon]

  Alright alright I get it..... enough already!!!!  I need to get my hands on that Callas/Di Stefano recording even if it kills me.  Is everybody happy now!!!!  I don't know how a great recording like that had slipped my radar.........

  marvin

At least these days, it won't cost you much, Marvin. It's now available on Naxos and on EMI's budget label, though the mid price EMI Great Recordings of the Century version probably has the best transfer.

[Siedler]

At least these days, it won't cost you much, Marvin. It's now available on Naxos and on EMI's budget label, though the mid price EMI Great Recordings of the Century version probably has the best transfer.

And you can (sample) it free on Spotify as many recordings of EMI are avalaibe there. 

[zamyrabyrd]

     

Funny the guy doesn't look much like Di Stefano...

Callas/Pretre has been my mainstay and I never had the urge to go out and buy another recording.
Maybe it's time for a new one...

ZB

[marvinbrown]

Funny the guy doesn't look much like Di Stefano...



ZB

  I believe that's Karajan in the photo....

  marvin
 

[zamyrabyrd]

  I believe that's Karajan in the photo....

 

So why isn't he conducting?

[Tsaraslondon]

Funny the guy doesn't look much like Di Stefano...

Callas/Pretre has been my mainstay and I never had the urge to go out and buy another recording.
Maybe it's time for a new one...

ZB

I urge you to try the earlier of the Callas sets, ZB. By the time she recorded it with Pretre, the voice was pretty much in tatters. Though the characterisation is, if anything, even more detailed, the top Cs all tend to emerge as shrieks.  In 1953, when she recorded the role under De Sabata, she is in sovereign voice. So too is Gobbi, whose voice was a little threadbare by 1965. Bergonzi is good on the Pretre version, but Di Stefano is at his not inconsiderable best on the 1953 version, in better voice than on the Karajan recording. To cap it all, De Sabata's conducting is so inevitably right in every bar. Too bad that he was only occasionally coaxed into the recording studio. No doubt if he'd recorded more, his name would have been as revered as Toscanini's.

[marvinbrown]

So why isn't he conducting?

  Perhaps he is preparing her for the role of Tosca- the dramatic power of that opera works well with that photo.....Oh God how I love Tosca, such a musically dark opera  0:)!!

  I just ordered the Callas/Di Stafano recording  and can't wait to hear it.

  marvin

[Salome]

   


Are Karajan and Price about to pash in this picture ?

[zamyrabyrd]

I just had a lucky listen with the score to the Tosca recording of 1953 with de Sabata,  di Stefano and Callas. Thanks for the lead—it's everything you said and even more.  To compare with the Traviata of the same year, the voice is so different in this role, like another woman. Di Stefano was amazing, especially in the last act where he goes back and forth from a fil di voce to piena voce. Usually the "E lucevan" is belted out from beginning to end.  It's so much harder to walk that tightrope of sound. Bravo for him and also de Sabata, yes indeed!!!

[Tsaraslondon]

I just had a lucky listen with the score to the Tosca recording of 1953 with de Sabata,  di Stefano and Callas. Thanks for the lead—it's everything you said and even more.  To compare with the Traviata of the same year, the voice is so different in this role, like another woman. Di Stefano was amazing, especially in the last act where he goes back and forth from a fil di voce to piena voce. Usually the "E lucevan" is belted out from beginning to end.  It's so much harder to walk that tightrope of sound. Bravo for him and also de Sabata, yes indeed!!!

Well I can't remember the exact words, but I completely agree with one critic, who, after praising the various contributions of De Sabata, Callas, Gobbi, Di Stefano and Walter Legge, said that actually the real winner was Puccini, which is exactly as it should be.

[Satzaroo]

In the Callas/De Stefano "Tosca," Callas's voice is shriller than normal. Thumbs down!

[Tsaraslondon]

In the Callas/De Stefano "Tosca," Callas's voice is shriller than normal. Thumbs down!

Which pressing are you listening to? I've always found it to be one of the recordings where her voice is at it's most secure, and, when it needs to be (in the love duets, for instance), wonderfully sensuous. It is also one of the few recordings where the top Cs are clear as laser beams, as secure and gleaming as anything Birgit Nilsson produced. I can only assume you are listening to a bad pressing. Admittedly there are other recordings where Callas produces some shrill and not so pleasing notes, but I have never found this to be one of them.

[zamyrabyrd]

In the Callas/De Stefano "Tosca," Callas's voice is shriller than normal. Thumbs down!

What pressing do you have? I will try to avoid it when buying my own copy.

ZB

[Tsaraslondon]

What pressing do you have? I will try to avoid it when buying my own copy.

ZB

ZB, I have the EMI Great Recordings of the Century pressing. It sounds pretty good to me.

[Satzaroo]

EMI classics--1997 digital remastering with Callas, Di Stefano, and Gobbi, Victor de Sabata conducting at La Scala.

[Tsaraslondon]

EMI classics--1997 digital remastering with Callas, Di Stefano, and Gobbi, Victor de Sabata conducting at La Scala.

Some of the 1997 pressings have been criticised fro boosting the treble and making the recordings unnecessarily shrill. I have the 2002 Great recordings of the Century pressing, which is better, though still not perfect, according to Robert E. Seletsky. Go to http://www.divinarecords.com/callas_update.htm for an assessment of the various pressings.

[Satzaroo]

Thanks, Tsaraslondon, for the heads up. Maybe I was too callous in criticizing Callas.

[Trouble]

Besides the obvious Callas/di Stefano/Gobbi may I suggest two off-the-beaten-path wonderful live Met recordings with:
Tebaldi/Tucker/Warren and Steber/Bergonzi/London.  Both in the late 1950's.
Mitropoulos brings out the very best in Tebaldi who gives an absolutely demented performance.
Both worth looking into.

[Sarastro]

Surprise-surprise, I'd add the Corelli-Milanov-Guelfi version for both great vocal artistry and emotional charge. Plus Tebaldi-di Stefani-Bastianini and the video with Corelli, Guelfi and Caniglia. Oddly enough, Scarpia there is played by another baritone, Afro Poli, and Franca Duval is Tosca for Caniglia's voice. Only Corelli sings and plays at once.  

PS: I find Pretre's recording with Callas, Bergonzi and Gobbi very impressive with regard to Callas' artistic portrayal of the role. Hm, it is even more of theater than opera. But I wouldn't recommend it in order not to have one disappointed by Bergonzi.

[Lilas Pastia]

I recommend hearing this clip in which Magda Olivero made her Met debut in 1975, 42 years after her La Scala debut in 1933 . And this one, made in a studio (I presume ) in 1964. Note the curdled milk tone, familiar from that generation of italian singers (she was born in 1912). It takes a while to get used to. Listen to the astonishing high B flat and the breathtaking fil di voce that follows. The rest of the Act 2 scene with Scarpia can be viewed here and here.

Olivero was legendary in Puccini and verismo composers. Cilea coaxed her out of an early retirement to sing Adriana Lecouvreur. That was in 1951, she sang on stage for another 35 years. Her kind of singing harks back to what the composers knew and favoured back then. For my money, better this kind of intensity than the Bailey's Irish cream kind of singing that has become the standard since Tebaldi, Caballé and Sutherland reshaped the way italian opera was to sound for future generations.

[knight66]

Fascinating. I have known her name, but never heard her. She was quite a singer. I watched and enjoyed the Tosca extracts. What a find the Scarpia, Fioravanti, is. His voice, firm juicy and flexible.

I had a look for Olivero discs; but most of the roles again lie an an area of repertoire I don't listen to.

How about a third such legendry singer: Raina Kabaivanska

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEJ9ti7fF1A&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NyRcvAPa9w&feature=related

Very different from one another. Everyone sings up a storm in the second extract. She seems to have been a considerable actress. I find some notes a bit fragile. But this singer, like the others we have discussed, has a faithful base of admirers.

Mike

[Lilas Pastia]

Kabaivanska is indeed a special singer. Come to think of it, nothing else will do for Tosca. That's why I 've never been fired up by Tebaldi, Caballé, Price or Milanov. They sing beautifully - admittedly better than Olivero, Gencer or Callas(*), but they don't inhabit the role as those divas did. It's a very elusive impression. It works for some listeners, not for others.

(*) except the 1953 one which is fantastic as pure singing - never heard such a flight to the high C on "quella lama".

If you compare Caballé to Sandrine Piau, Maria Bayo, Sylvia McNair or even Sutherland in Se pieta di me non senti (Handel's Cleopatra), you'll find that same phenomenon. Caballé's clip is visually ugly, and all of her singing is done pianissimo, almost in head voice, and lentissimo. Yet she casts a spell the other singers don't - however beautiful their singing is, and admittedly more in style.

[Guido]

Just watched this and was absolutely appalled! Such cheapness, such vulgarity, such a hideous story! Are all of Puccini's operas like this? I can handle cheapness and vulgarity when it comes in Straussian form (Salome is just great!) but this is just so base and crass!

I've only ever really heard Puccini in aria excerpts before - some of which I love (mostly the very famous ones - eg. Visi d'arte and Tu che di gel sei cinta) - but I was shocked at how poor the music was in this opera...

[Scarpia]

Such cheapness, such vulgarity, such a hideous story! Are all of Puccini's operas like this?

Yes, they're all cheap, vulgar and hideous.  That's why they were all forgotten so quickly.   

[Guido]

Yes, they're all cheap, vulgar and hideous.  That's why they were all forgotten so quickly.   

Oh I can see the appeal! But if they're all like this I'd rather stop exploring his operas because I'm pretty sure that, for the time being at least, it's not for me!

[False_Dmitry]

Oh I can see the appeal! But if they're all like this I'd rather stop exploring his operas because I'm pretty sure that, for the time being at least, it's not for me!

You're talking here about the cultural idiom of verismo,  which was a product of its own times.  Although not everyone appreciates it, it should not be written-off as "cheap"...  in fact it's an intricate procedure to write successful verismo works.

You might like to turn your attention to MANON LESCAUT and more especially to LA FANCIULLA DEL WEST if you're looking for more "substance".  Puccini's final work, IL TRITTICO (three one-acters intended to be performed on a single bill, as they complement each other - they're all about death, in different forms) probably has some of his most astonishing music - you may either be spellbound by SUOR ANGELICA or be repelled by it, in equal measure.

[knight66]

I think the music in his most popular operas is as much admired as it is denigrated. He was supremely skillful. And indeed most of his operas are along the lines of Tosca; whatever you do, if Tosca appalls you, keep away from Turandot.

I have quite a few versions of his most famous operas, though  don't really ever want to see Butterfly again, the music is sufficient for me. He is an arch manipulator of his audience.

A shame you were so disappointed; there is hours of pleasure there if you can attune yourself.

I am surprised you can stomach Salome, but not Tosca.

Mike

[False_Dmitry]

I am a big fan of Puccini operas: Manon Lescaut, La bohème, Tosca, Madama Butterfly and Turandot - big, beautiful and extremely well written operas with great music and roles.

BUTTERFLY is indeed an astounding piece, especially the Second Act.  The chocolate-box aria of Un bel di is a favourite audition and concert piece, and in fact even light sopranos can come over well in it.  But the acid test is the Act II aria, which has been the Waterloo of many a soprano.  There are few who can convincingly do both arias and look and act convincingly as a 17-year-old (her age in Act II).

My own view is that it's passionately anti-imperialist piece, and the clash of cultures is at the heart of it.  You can't divorce the meaning from the music here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv3iYSwlz-M&feature=related

He is an arch manipulator of his audience.

Certainly agreed there.  Singers find him less rewarding to perform than Verdi, because the entire thing is written-out to the last scintilla, leaving little flexibility for interpretation.  I was once involved in a masterclass (about TOSCA, keeping us back on topic) with Josephine Barstow - she immensely preferred to sing Verdi, if given the choice.

[Guido]

He is an arch manipulator of his audience.

Yes absolutely - I really don't like this.

A shame you were so disappointed; there is hours of pleasure there if you can attune yourself.

As I say I love many of the arias in the concert setting - its the music between these big numbers that is lacking!

I am surprised you can stomach Salome, but not Tosca.

Strauss is the master of bad taste and kitsch - but he knew exactly what he was doing, as his letters to Hofmannsthal attest and of course he was also capable of writing truly great music too when he could identify with his libretto (Marchallin's monologue - need one say more?). But Salome would actually be a lesser piece I think if you removed some of the vulgarities - The Dance of Seven Veils for instance is meant to be lurid and would have less impact if the music was 'better'.

With Puccini the kitsch is just the style - he's not controlling it as an expressive paramater within the music - and when the melodies aren't as ravishing as say Visi d'arte then the cracks show. Take for instance Cesare Angelotti's little theme that comes when ever he appears on the scene - that is just a terrible passage of music, there's no getting away from it, and it grates more every time one hears it. So often he covers up the paucity of the material with some excellent orchestration, and you're meant to just be swept away with the drama and not notice. I agree that he is very skilful in a sense and he knows exactly what his music can and can't do.

So many of the emotional outbursts seem ersatz and lacking in substance. Verdi is leagues above in terms of characterisation - many of his characters live and breath and have a real warmth. Puccini's seem shallow and cold by comparison. It's just very sentimental but there's also undertones of cruelty throughout which makes the sentimentality even less palatable and sinister even. Reading the synopsis of Turandot seems to confirm what you said Mike! It's weird - I knew virtually nothing about Puccini and now the nebulous impression I had of him has crystalised into something significantly more more horrible than I imagined!

Who knows, maybe I'll get it at some point, I'll keep trying. I'll try La Fanciulla and Il Trittico, and i guess I should try La Boheme too...

[(poco) Sforzando]

Strauss is the master of bad taste and kitsch - but he knew exactly what he was doing, as his letters to Hofmannsthal attest and of course he was also capable of writing truly great music too when he could identify with his libretto (Marchallin's monologue - need one say more?). But Salome would actually be a lesser piece I think if you removed some of the vulgarities - The Dance of Seven Veils for instance is meant to be lurid and would have less impact if the music was 'better'.

With Puccini the kitsch is just the style - he's not controlling it as an expressive paramater within the music - and when the melodies aren't as ravishing as say Visi d'arte then the cracks show. Take for instance Cesare Angelotti's little theme that comes when ever he appears on the scene - that is just a terrible passage of music, there's no getting away from it, and it grates more every time one hears it. So often he covers up the paucity of the material with some excellent orchestration, and you're meant to just be swept away with the drama and not notice. I agree that he is very skilful in a sense and he knows exactly what his music can and can't do.

So many of the emotional outbursts seem ersatz and lacking in substance. Verdi is leagues above in terms of characterisation - many of his characters live and breath and have a real warmth. Puccini's seem shallow and cold by comparison. It's just very sentimental but there's also undertones of cruelty throughout which makes the sentimentality even less palatable and sinister even. Reading the synopsis of Turandot seems to confirm what you said Mike! It's weird - I knew virtually nothing about Puccini and now the nebulous impression I had of him has crystalised into something significantly more more horrible than I imagined!

Who knows, maybe I'll get it at some point, I'll keep trying. I'll try La Fanciulla and Il Trittico, and i guess I should try La Boheme too...

I think you'd find Joseph Kerman's remarks on Puccini and Strauss to be of interest (in his 1956 book Opera as Drama, and get the original edition, because he softened his stance somewhat in the revision and became a bit less nasty). Kerman, who originated the phrase "shabby little shocker" to describe Tosca, admires Verdi far more and takes a position very close to yours. I absolutely agree that Puccini is manipulative, often veering between the extremes of sentimentality and sadism, but I rather enjoy him nonetheless while at the same time I feel Verdi was more emotionally genuine.

[sospiro]

I never tire of listening to Tosca but don't have a DVD. I was looking for Tosca: in the settings and at the times of Tosca and after some help from a friend & a bit of Googling found this.



It's £25 from http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk which I reckon is a bargain so I've ordered it. LA FANCIULLA DEL WEST is a Puccini I don't know so I am well pleased.

[mc ukrneal]

I never tire of listening to Tosca but don't have a DVD. I was looking for Tosca: in the settings and at the times of Tosca and after some help from a friend & a bit of Googling found this.



It's £25 from http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk which I reckon is a bargain so I've ordered it. LA FANCIULLA DEL WEST is a Puccini I don't know so I am well pleased.

If that is the Fanciulla with Neblett, it is probably the one to get. Keep an eye out for a couple themes of music that Andrew Lloyd Webber might have 'borrowed'.  Hope you like it. It is a bit different than his other operas and yet retains enough to be recognizable as Puccini.

I think I would try La Boheme next as this is standard Puccini. I've never actually met anyone who hated it (it often makes an ideal first opera for a novice - catchy tunes, 4 relatively short 30 minute acts, straight-forward love story, etc). Tosca is a bit staged in the way it is put together, and you may prefer Boheme in this sense as the story is more down to earth (love, illness, jealousy, etc). I guess I am just trying to say that Boheme flows a bit more naturally.

Turandot is also quite staged in this sense, so probably one to skip for now. There is a great recording on CD of La Rondine (not sure about DVD). This is another to consider at some point.

[knight66]

I think Tosca is superbly structured. It is based on a rather wordy play by Sardu. Puccini knew what he wanted to do to shave it down to the essentials.

The characterisation is skillful, though I agree that to get the best out of the main characters, you have to go along with Puccini, I don't think innovation works.

In the play the 'torture' scene is interrupted by a character coming in and explaining at great length about Napoleon winning the battle of Marengo. It entirely holds up the flow of the drama; especially as everyone knows which way that battle went.

In the opera, this news is put across in an exchange that lasts about 15 seconds; the outcome is Cavarodissi's famous cry of , 'Vittoria, Vittoria' A turgid history lesson is turned into a thrilling moment that provides light and colour, that is then extinguished. Just one example of how he tailored the drama.

As to the music, yes, he was a terrific orchestrator, but I think the music exists at a high level of craft/art. I am not going to debate the difference there. It contains very little padding at all. Barbirolli regarded Butterfly to be a masterpiece. He felt the less well known corners were terrifically well written and were tricky to bring off.

Now, Trittico has always given me problems. The funny one I don't find funny, the sentimental one makes me queasy and the dramatic one I just don't connect with.

Mike

[False_Dmitry]

Now, Trittico has always given me problems. The funny one I don't find funny, the sentimental one makes me queasy and the dramatic one I just don't connect with.

But if you appreciate the idea of "stripping out the inessential" then TRITTICO is for you   Three full-scale operas pared-down to single-acters   Each is perfect in its own way.  They're essentially theatrical pieces, and so much is lost if you only hear the music...  give them a chance in the theatre, and you may feel differently about them?

TABARRO is unfortunately only heard in Puccini's later revision these days - the public found it "too much to take", and he was forced to tone it down.  Regrettably Ricordi only issue the revision - something to do with the wishes of the Puccini Estate or other like that?   The first version has more cojones - maybe you'd like it more?   There's a different aria for Michele after he suspects Giorgetta of the affair - instead of the two-dimensional revenge aria we get nowadays, Scorri, fiume eterno  ("Flow, never-ending river") is a much more nihilistic and internalised piece.  (Apparently the Catholic Church had concerns about the nihilism - another reason Puccini may have changed it?).  The end is different too - slightly.  In the revised version Giorgetta only has a stage-direction ("shrieks"), whereas in the original she goes out on a sustained fortissimo top-c''.   This might in fact be fashion - it was probably an extraordinary and attention-grabbing idea to have a singer shout instead of singing, but nowadays they do it all the time, and the novelty value has been lost.  It was Gobbi - returning to TOSCA - who really altered the performing norms when he - rather nobly, for a singer - decided that it was more true to Scarpia's character to sing him "in an ugly way" and break into semi-shouting for parts of it.  He was bitterly criticised at the time in some sections of the press, but we now accept this approach as a valid interpretation.

I notice no-one's mentioned the earlier Puccini - LA RONDINE, EDGAR, LE VILLI etc.  Are they utterly forgotten now, or only revived (viz LA RONDINE) as shop-window pieces for star soloists?

[mc ukrneal]

I notice no-one's mentioned the earlier Puccini - LA RONDINE, EDGAR, LE VILLI etc.  Are they utterly forgotten now, or only revived (viz LA RONDINE) as shop-window pieces for star soloists?

Hey! Not true! Penalty!   

I don't think they are forgotten - just that the others shine so much more brightly. But seeing as Tosca didn't work for the OP, perhaps these will be more attractive as they do have less of what he didn't like. Still I would try at least one of the other greats as it could just be this one opera (tosca) that annoys.

[False_Dmitry]

Hey! Not true! Penalty!   

I humbly crave your pardon!

[mc ukrneal]

I humbly crave your pardon!

Good one!

I actually should have sent you to the dungeons, where you could have escaped to sing Vittoria and we both could have had a nice Italian meal afterwards (alternate ending)!

Incidentally, this quote from Lloyd Schwartz seems quite appropriate considering some of the earlier posts: "Is it possible for a work of art to seem both completely sincere in its intentions and at the same time counterfeit and manipulative? Puccini built a major career on these contradictions. But people care about him, even admire him, because he did it both so shamelessly and so skillfully. How can you complain about a composer whose music is so relentlessly memorable, even — maybe especially — at its most saccharine?"

[False_Dmitry]

at its most saccharine?"

One man's saccharine is another man's healthy sustenance

For all my reservations about the emotional hijacking, I would not be without TABARRO, BUTTERLY, FANCIULLA or RONDINE

Does MANON LESCAUT have many fans?  It seems to enjoy less popularity than the other mature Puccini works?

[Tsaraslondon]

Just a few points Il Trittico was not Puccini's last opera, Turandot was; and La Rondine, Puccini's attempt at  Viennese operetta was written between 1914 and 1916, after La Fanciulla del West.

My own feeling regarding Puccini is that he was a great man of the theatre. His operas work incredibly well on the stage, and almost play themselves. I have no hesitation in pronouncing Verdi the greater musician, but Puccini's operas are so well thought out in terms of their staging that they invariably work in performance, even when production and/or singers are sub standard. To put it another way, I have rarely seen a performance of a Puccini opera, that hasn't worked on some level, regardless of the quality of the performance. On the other hand, I recently saw a production of Aida at the ENO, which achieved the almost impossible task of making the opera one long bore.

That said, when singers, conducting and production are good, Verdi seems to me to be on a far loftier level of achievement. Where in Puccini do we find the humanity that informs Verdi's characterisation of Rigoletto, of King Philip, of Simon Boccanegra, to name but three; the psychological complexity of characters like Otello, Don Carlo, Violetta or Azucena? Verdi's operas can work well purely as an aural experience, whereas Puccini's, it seems to me, rather need the whiff of the greasepaint.

[Wendell_E]

I notice no-one's mentioned the earlier Puccini - LA RONDINE, EDGAR, LE VILLI etc.  Are they utterly forgotten now, or only revived (viz LA RONDINE) as shop-window pieces for star soloists?

Rondine's actually a late  work (only the Trittico operas and Turandot are later).  I've never like it nearly as much as my favorite Puccini operas, the first two "panels" of the Trittico (I can take Schicchi, or leave it), or Fanciulla, the work that immediately preceded Rondine.

Edit: I see tsaraslondon wrote about Rondine's chronological position in the Puccini canon while I was writing my post.  Great minds, etc.

[mjwal]

Manon Lescaut is my favourite Puke-cini (as my dad always said) opera; sure, I realise that it doesn't really hang together, that there are passages less than inspired - but it moves me more than other P works: there are a couple of melodic turns that almost stop my heart beating even if I only think of them and it has a convincing atmosphere, like Bohème, (the third act of which is Puccini's musico-dramatic masterpiece). Tosca does strike me as "a shabby little shocker" (I didn't know there was a revised version of Opera as Drama that tones this remark down - what does he say then?) - I tend to agree with Guido. However, I will agree that a great singer in the title role can temporarily convince one otherwise in the opera house. I say this only because in the 70s I saw Kabaivanska twice in the role in Frankfurt, once with (?) and once with Pavarotti. She dominated the stage and the aural space. Pavarotti was very good - he wasn't so famous then, just better than later - but the other tenor, whom I heard first as Cavaradossi in that particular production, wiped the great P out in the fortissimo cries of "Vittoria!" I made the mistake of going to a more recent production a few years ago - fergeddit. Never again.
I dream of attending performances of the two operas with Magda Olivero in her prime...

[(poco) Sforzando]

(I didn't know there was a revised version of Opera as Drama that tones this remark down - what does he say then?)

I have only the first version in my library, but I believe that particular remark remains. It's the most quoted phrase from this distinguished musicologist's entire career. But there's a softening of attitude towards Puccini in the revision that makes the overall tone of the book less delightfully nasty.

[False_Dmitry]

On the other hand, I recently saw a production of Aida at the ENO, which achieved the almost impossible task of making the opera one long bore.

It was indeed a woeful evening.  If it had been bad, or a failure, you could almost excuse it.  But just to be dully adequate and never lift the notes off the page... now that is indeed inadequate.  The cast, I should say, were not really to blame...  ENO's potty strategy of selling tickets on the names of potluck directors and designers from other walks of theatre.  One elephant on sticks does not an AIDA make.   Why don't they learn the lesson that when they invite an established opera director like Alden, it's an instant hit?   But none of the Ruperts and Pennys have a clue what they're doing.

[knight66]

But if you appreciate the idea of "stripping out the inessential" then TRITTICO is for you   ........  They're essentially theatrical pieces, and so much is lost if you only hear the music...  give them a chance in the theatre, and you may feel differently about them?

Yes, good points there for me. I have known Cav and Pag for about 40 years, but avoided seeing them. Last year I did see them both and was enthraled. The stage performances made me go back to the discs and listen with real relish.

At present my favourite DVD Tosca is Chailly, Terfel and Malfitano.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5368.msg129210.html#msg129210

Mike

[DarkAngel]

Just watched this and was absolutely appalled! Such cheapness, such vulgarity, such a hideous story! Are all of Puccini's operas like this? I can handle cheapness and vulgarity when it comes in Straussian form (Salome is just great!) but this is just so base and crass!

I've only ever really heard Puccini in aria excerpts before - some of which I love (mostly the very famous ones - eg. Visi d'arte and Tu che di gel sei cinta) - but I was shocked at how poor the music was in this opera...

Everyone can have different personal favorites......
But to disparage Puccini as a "poor" opera composer and vulgar storylines seems very strange, if you look at any respected list of 10 favorite operas of all time you will almost always find 3 Puccini operas:
-Tosca
-Madama Butterfly
-La Boheme

Seems he has passed the test of time with public and critics alike, if you are correct about his shortcomings he has fooled quite a few people over the years

I am big Puccini fan both story line and music......and I love Tosca! 

[Guido]

Everyone can have different personal favorites......
But to disparage Puccini in general as a "poor" opera composer and vulgar storylines seems very strange, if you look at any respected list of 10 favorite operas of all time you will almost always find 3 Puccini operas:
-Tosca
-Madama Butterfly
-La Boheme

Seems he has passed the test of time with public and critics alike, if you are correct about his shortcomings he has fooled quite a few people over the years

I am big Puccini fan both story line and music......and I love Tosca! 

I didn't say he was a poor opera composer, I said that much of the music is poor. This is an important distinction. I also said that I understood why they were popular, and of course I know that they are. But that doesn't mean that I can't be disgusted by their content. I think it would be strange to say that the music wasn't vulgar and sentimental - again this is part of the music's popularity - the same is often true of Strauss, an opera composer whose work I love. I don't think he [Puccini] has fooled anyone - I'm fairly sure that everyone knows what they're getting (the replies on this thread seem to suggest this at least) and that he knew what he was giving the audience.

And actually, I think many critics have been fairly harsh on the piece - I had a little look online after reading this thread this morning. This may be of interest - http://www.operainfo.org/broadcast/operaTeaching.cgi?id=73&language=1&material_id=310

[knight66]

Guido,

Thank you for that link there are many interesting comments and insights, some duff ones too.
'It was after he understood how cruel his idea of life could be that Puccini returned to the Tosca project ... '
I defy anyone to be able to say this with authority. It is pop psychology gone far too far.

It is an odd idea to criticise Puccini's take on Sardou because he cut away most of the political background. His purpose was not to illuminate that struggle, rather that background provides the context for a gripping interplay of personality and a good plot twist. It is a thrilling roller-coaster.

I remain puzzled at your moral indignation at Tosca, yet your relish for Salome. The Wilde play on which that is based caused real moral outrage and there is nothing in Tosca to equal the act of kissing the lips of a decapitated head, let alone the preceding pages dwelling on the sexual arousal experienced by gazing on the holy man's pure white, veined, marble flesh...etc.

Puccini's works may be more ambiguous because of the clear obsessions that do indeed come through. This is like reading Dickens with all his pubescent, tiny breasted, perfect little potential wives aged just; sixteen. Then looking at the same works through the lens of his life where the preoccupations with such girls leave one very uncomfortable. But do we criticise Dickens, or Dali for his dubious influences, Caravaggio for his?

I have a bit of a love/hate thing for some of Puccini's works, but that is a personal reaction to the deliberate, blatant sentimentality which he deployed as ruthlessly as thumbscrews.

Then there is this remark....

'Does this mean that in expressing twentieth-century pessimism, Tosca has the same cultural authority as Salome and Wozzeck? The answer is no, because Puccini was a culturally less lucid and psychologically less energetic artist that Strauss or Berg, and lacked their intellectual vigor.'

Eh! Strauss and intellectual vigor. It is clear from the letters they exchanged that Strauss was lead by Hofmannsthal under whose cloak he hoped to gain some intellectual respectability. Where is there evidence of Strauss as an intellectual heavyweight, or having any intellectual rigor?

Turning to your reaction to Puccini, it is as though you are complaining that the Maserati in front of you is not a Rolls Royce. He was not trying to be Verdi. His music was of its time.

Puccini deals in individuals, they represent only themselves in their own situations. Verdi transcends this by putting before us characters that sit in their wider context and, filled out as they are in detail, they are archetypes who speak to us across the stage lights, we learn about the human condition. But, Puccini was not aiming at that kind of experience. If he had and failed I could see the point of the criticism, but he was absolutely at the top of his artistry in terms of aiming and succeeding in what he was doing.

Finally: I assume I am wrong in interpreting your remark that he in effect may have been a good opera composer, but not a good composer; indicating Opera is some kind of second class form of music to symphonic or chamber output. There are some here who do think that, misguidedly. I hope that does not include you.

Mike

[zamyrabyrd]

Finally: I assume I am wrong in interpreting your remark that he in effect may have been a good opera composer, but not a good composer; indicating Opera is some kind of second class form of music to symphonic or chamber output. There are some here who do think that, misguidedly. I hope that does not include you.

Madame Butterfly is a fine, tightly constructed piece of music. The musical interlude before the last scene of Act II shows Puccini was no orchestral lightweight.  (I was always fascinated with his use of augmented 5ths in this opera and how he ties together so well the musical material of Act I right up to its end.)

Tosca is also tight but fast moving, keeping up the tension even in the albeit slower or more tender moments like the duet between Tosca and Cavaradossi in the first act.

The above are not operas in which one can cut and paste arias, although the last one given to the tenor in Butterfly allegedly was added later.

ZB

[Guido]

Oh my goodness - so much to react to!

First let me just say that obviously I don't agree with all those opinions in the article I linked to - the link was merely to point out to DarkAngel that in fact many critics did not like the work. I am sure that many critics also do.

I remain puzzled at your moral indignation at Tosca, yet your relish for Salome.

Strauss music is filthy when the subject matter is filthy - it is entirely fitting to the libretto and the characters he is trying to bring to life onstage. (It's worth mentioning that he is never judgemental - he just presents the characters as they are and we are never told that we are meant to hate them. This I find quite interesting. This is just a side issue though.) I'm certainly not a prude, and it's not the subject matter per se of Puccini that I dislike - as I say Strauss' treatment of the lurid plots in Salome and Elektra is just great for the reasons I've outlined - but Puccini couches his cruelty in the most saccharine sentimentality imaginable which makes me feel queesy because it's all the more sinister for this - and I'm not sure that this is his expressive intent. It's not the acts themselves but how they are presented. My main issue with it though is not a moral one, but a musical one, though the two are linked.

Strauss and intellectual rigour - not sure I agree either, but I think Ariadne and especially Capriccio (possibly my favourite opera(?!)) are very interesting on an intellectual level as well as the purely sensual gratification that the music so amply provides.

I'm not asking Puccini to be anything else. But equally I don't need to like taking a ride in a Maserati if it's not to my taste!

Puccini deals in individuals, they represent only themselves in their own situations.

Hmm I'll have a think about this. I need to hear more of the operas obviously to make an informed judgement, but given that it seems that many of his female heroines have some kind of sadistic streak and that the sentimentality is also ubiquitous, perhaps as a whole they represent something significantly darker.

I absolutely don't think that opera is a second class form of musical expression - I was accused of this a few weeks ago too! I can't really imagine or think of think anything that could be harder to write than an opera. I do (obviously) think that writing a great opera is a skill apart from writing a great string quartet though, because the composer needs to have a sense of the stage, what will work and what wont, an effective libretto that they can respond to with approriate music, good characterisation, pacing, drama, repose etc. etc. and that the music (either good or bad) may not always be paramount to a successful opera. Menotti's operas might be taken as a good example of works that are effective on stage, even if the music isn't always inspired. On the other side, Barber's operas contain much very fine music, but I've heard that they don't fare all too well on the stage which is maybe why they're not often done. Of course some composers achieve both (e.g. Mozart).

[Guido]

Please note that my reactions and opinions are all in their infancy! I just wasn't expecting to find what I saw in Tosca, and I'm also trying to work out for myself why I found it so objectionable! It's always useful to have to explain yourself though because it makes you really think about these things. I realise that it isn't the done thing to admit this sort of thing on an internet discussion forum, but I'm not proud, and don't mind being honest. Maybe you'll show me the error of my ways, yet(!)

[knight66]

Guido, I did not imagine you subscribed to that ragbag of observations. They have been brought together to provoke discussion for students.

Thanks for your expansion on your thinking.

Mike

[DarkAngel]

Surprisingly few choices on DVD for Tosca............
I do not have the version above but I suspect the combination of Zeffirelli + Met + Sinopoli do a fine job.
The two version I do own are both "movie" versions and not stage productions:

 

The 1976 Kabaivanska features a younger Domingo and is a great starting point, excellent Tosca by Raina but picture color quality is a bit pale/washed out and sound does not compare with modern releases.....

The newer 2000 Tosca with opera power couple Gheorghiu + Alagna maybe a bit visually overproduced for some tastes, but picture and sound quality are much better and Papano lends great orchestral support

[False_Dmitry]

The above are not operas in which one can cut and paste arias, although the last one given to the tenor in Butterfly allegedly was added later.

It was indeed added later.  I personally don't like it, it's "false" - Pinkerton isn't remorseful in the slightest.  But if it's included, then the trio in the same scene has to be performed in a different key, because the orchestral follow-on would result in a horrible tonality-clunk otherwise. 

Menotti's operas might be taken as a good example of works that are effective on stage, even if the music isn't always inspired. On the other side, Barber's operas contain much very fine music, but I've heard that they don't fare all too well on the stage which is maybe why they're not often done. Of course some composers achieve both (e.g. Mozart).

I have something of a soft spot for Menotti, since I have staged several of his works...  I would certainly go along with what you've said there.  However, poor ol' Barber is staged so very rarely that I don't think his operas have really been "given the bird" by theatre audiences!    I've never seen VANESSA live (I wonder if anyone here has?).  ANTHONY & CLEOPATRA suffered from an (allegedly) poorly-conceived production at its premiere based around a number of technical effects which successively failed each night, bringing a torrent of abuse down upon the show.  Barber was later persuaded to revise the piece (Menotti talked him into doing so, making some judicious cuts and revisions), and the Revised Version ought to work well on stage...   I only know it from playing-over the Vocal Score, though.   It's something of a tragedy that in his Centenary Year this year,  VANESSA isn't getting even a concert performance anywhere I'm aware of

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4n4Lx2RlG0

[Guido]

I've answered this post here so that we can stay on topic:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1236.60.html

[kishnevi]

Not quite pertinent to the current discussion, but pertinent to the topic.

Call this the arrgh moment of the day.  The author (according the jacket) is provost of Georgetown U., formerly a professor of classics at U of Penn., degrees from Princeton and Yale, and past president of the American Philological Association.

So here, near the conclusion of the book (James L. O'Donell,The Ruin of the Roman Empire:  A New History, HarperCollins, 2008), he talks about Castel Sant'Angelo.

The rooftop would be fortified to defend the medieval city, a tunnel would run from there to the Vatican, and Giuseppe Verdi in the nineteenth century would make it the setting for the climax of Tosca.

Head, meet desk.  Desk, meet head.

It's not a book I would recommend for other reasons--most of it is devoted to criticizing Justinian because he didn't act like a 21st century American university professor might act.

[knight66]

I very much enjoyed the Domingo version that was broadcast live with each act taking place in Rome exactly where the story was set and at the time of day stipulated. The final act was of course on the top of Castel Sant'Angelo. Surprisingly, no traffic noise intruded.

The set mentioned above includes that version of Tosca.


I only saw it once, as it was transmitted, but thought at the time that it was excellent. There was one frission that Puccini had not specified; when early in act 1 Domingo ran down some scaffolding and fell.....was the entire opera going to go for a burton? He got up and carried on. Phew! I bet those seconds meant damp chairs for the technical team.

Mike

[DarkAngel]

Surprisingly few choices on DVD for Tosca............
I do not have the version above but I suspect the combination of Zeffirelli + Met + Sinopoli do a fine job.
The two version I do own are both "movie" versions and not stage productions:

 

The 1976 Kabaivanska features a younger Domingo and is a great starting point, excellent Tosca by Raina but picture color quality is a bit pale/washed out and sound does not compare with modern releases.....

The newer 2000 Tosca with opera power couple Gheorghiu + Alagna maybe a bit visually overproduced for some tastes, but picture and sound quality are much better and Papano lends great orchestral support

Perhaps a quick visual survey of some available complete Toscas.....then Maria Callas

Kabaivanska
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H45MMW7VxA
If only the colors were not slightly faded out.......

Gheorghiu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OIExoUb8jk&feature=related
Physical beauty that makes a believable object of desire.....black background a bit too severe

Behrens
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOGdKbxA3IA
Lavish Zeffirelli stage set.....don't care for the "eyes closed" rendition

Callas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZXwz0gj5fY&feature=related
Notice the searing emotional expression conveyed by the facial and body movements of La Divina
compared to other sopranos

[Tsaraslondon]

Perhaps a quick visual survey of some available complete Toscas.....then Maria Callas

Kabaivanska
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H45MMW7VxA
If only the colors were not slightly faded out.......

Gheorghiu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OIExoUb8jk&feature=related
Physical beauty that makes a believable object of desire.....black background a bit too severe

Behrens
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOGdKbxA3IA
Lavish Zeffirelli stage set.....don't care for the "eyes closed" rendition

Callas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZXwz0gj5fY&feature=related
Notice the searing emotional expression conveyed by the facial and body movements of La Divina
compared to other sopranos

Both Kabaivanska and Gheorghiu are hampered, rather than helped, by the film technique (and the lip synching is particularly bad in the Kabaivanska version), but both give plausible accounts. I didn't care for Behrens in the role, not really her milieu.

As usual Callas stands apart. It's as if the sentiments are somehow wrenched from her very being. Here we are presented with a woman at the very limits of her endurance. It is not hard to understand how this woman would resort to murder out of sheer desperation.  No doubt the others, even Behrens, make prettier sounds, (this is 1964 Callas after all), but none of them makes us so aware of the dramatic situation.

[False_Dmitry]

The rooftop would be fortified to defend the medieval city, a tunnel would run from there to the Vatican, and Giuseppe Verdi in the nineteenth century would make it the setting for the climax of Tosca.

Verdi's TOSCA would be a tempting prospect, though    I wonder if he ever heard the Puccini work (which premiered in the year before his death), and what his views of it might have been?

[Tsaraslondon]

Verdi's TOSCA would be a tempting prospect, though    I wonder if he ever heard the Puccini work (which premiered in the year before his death), and what his views of it might have been?

Verdi was offered the original libretto, but declined. He was an old man by this time, and objected to the ending. He did, however, find much to approve of in the libretto and was particularly taken by Cavaradossi's original aria in Act III, which was a philosophical farewell to life. Puccini, on the other hand, did not like it at all, stating that Cavaradossi's thoughts in his final hour must only be of Tosca. In fact it was Puccini himself who came up with the words for the climactic phrase muoio disperato!

[ccar]

Manon Lescaut is my favourite Puke-cini (as my dad always said) opera ...
Tosca does strike me as "a shabby little shocker" (I didn't know there was a revised version of Opera as Drama that tones this remark down - what does he say then?) - I tend to agree with Guido. However, I will agree that a great singer in the title role can temporarily convince one otherwise in the opera house. ...
I dream of attending performances of the two operas with Magda Olivero in her prime...

" If one just sings, without putting in any heart or soul, it remains just beautiful singing and not a soul that sings!"
Magda Olivero

Magda Olivero is an extraordinary example of an artist that could give us much more than a beautiful "voice".
As always, for the purists her "technique" may not be an academic model of perfection.
But, like Maria Callas, the humane character and dramatic intensity she projects - her "soul" - is a very impressive experience.
Also like Callas, Tosca was one of Magda Olivero's most extraordinary roles.       

mjwal, I Know it is never the same as the real thing, but perhaps these may help your dream:

                           http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaIPjW1u1TE


 

[kishnevi]

Verdi's TOSCA would be a tempting prospect, though    I wonder if he ever heard the Puccini work (which premiered in the year before his death), and what his views of it might have been?

Verdi died roughly a few weeks before the Milan premiere of Tosca, and from what I remember of his biography, was not in Rome at the time of the world premiere.  (In fact, from what I remember,  he didn't go anywhere near Rome in his final years--Milan was the city for him. )

It's conceivable that someone played part or all of the score as a piano runthrough  privately, but if so, there does not seem to be any record of what he thought about the music.

[False_Dmitry]

Verdi died roughly a few weeks before the Milan premiere of Tosca, and from what I remember of his biography, was not in Rome at the time of the world premiere.  (In fact, from what I remember,  he didn't go anywhere near Rome in his final years--Milan was the city for him. )

The premiere of Tosca (in Rome) was on 14 Jan 1900, and the first Milan performance was on 17th March of the same year.  Verdi didn't die until 17th January 1901 - more than nine months after the Milan performances, and more than a whole year after the Roman premiere

[kishnevi]

The premiere of Tosca (in Rome) was on 14 Jan 1900, and the first Milan performance was on 17th March of the same year.  Verdi didn't die until 17th January 1901 - more than nine months after the Milan performances, and more than a whole year after the Roman premiere

Oh, yes

Well, what's a year between friends?

However, the point remains that, from what I remember of his biography, it doesn't seem that he attended any performance  of Tosca--if he did, it would have been at La Scala--and if he heard the music at a rehearsal or privately at a piano runthrough of some sort (not at all inconceivable, since Ricordi published both composers), no one seems to have recorded his opinions of the score.

[DarkAngel]

Techno version of Tosca aria:
(things get very groovy at the 46 second mark)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIqpxn-6nlU

Party on dudes 

[Tsaraslondon]

Techno version of Tosca aria:
(things get very groovy at the 46 second mark)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIqpxn-6nlU

Party on dudes 

Oh dear! I suppose we have this to thank for that sort of thing. The fun starts around 3'30".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MR6D7tL38U

[False_Dmitry]

no one seems to have recorded his opinions of the score.

Perhaps not in so many words...  but the ending of FALSTAFF suggests Verdi's support for the younger generation

[Franco]

I am strongly considering the CD (not the DVD) of this Tosca.  I have not bought a new Tosca in a long time, is the Gheorghiu, Alagna, Raimondi, Antonio Pappano really the new standard as many commentators seem to think?

I've seen a few clips and she is very impressive.  This would be my first purchase of her in any role.

[Tsaraslondon]

I am strongly considering the CD (not the DVD) of this Tosca.  I have not bought a new Tosca in a long time, is the Gheorghiu, Alagna, Raimondi, Antonio Pappano really the new standard as many commentators seem to think?

I've seen a few clips and she is very impressive.  This would be my first purchase of her in any role.

I don't know the performance well enough to be able to recommend it. I've heard snippets, which sounded pretty good, and I caught the last 2 acts of the film when they showed it on BBC4 recently. However, I can't tell you if it will stand the test of time as the Callas/De Sabata and Price/Karajan versions have.

[DarkAngel]

I am strongly considering the CD (not the DVD) of this Tosca.  I have not bought a new Tosca in a long time, is the Gheorghiu, Alagna, Raimondi, Antonio Pappano really the new standard as many commentators seem to think?

I've seen a few clips and she is very impressive.  This would be my first purchase of her in any role.

I have the DVD..........
I would not call it a new standard of performance, especially compared to classic Callas and others.
What you get is a physically beautiful AG as Tosca with great modern picture quality and sound. This is a movie version with some dreamy visual artistic effects added like fades and cut aways to actual recording sessions for film with Papano conducting and singers recording thier parts.....not as disjointed as it sounds, actually pretty interesting effect. Angela's actings skills are quite good and she is very photogenic.

If you own 2-3 Tosca DVDs this should be one, youtube has many extended samples to check out......

I will recommend another absolutely delightful DVD with Angela Gheorghiu:

[Tsaraslondon]

I have the DVD..........
I would not call it a new standard of performance, especially compared to classic Callas and others.
What you get is a physically beautiful AG as Tosca with great modern picture quality and sound. This is a movie version with some dreamy visual artistic effects added like fades and cut aways to actual recording sessions for film with Papano conducting and singers recording thier parts.....not as disjointed as it sounds, actually pretty interesting effect. Angela's actings skills are quite good and she is very photogenic.

If you own 2-3 Tosca DVDs this should be one, youtube has many extended samples to check out......

I will recommend another absolutely delightful DVD with Angela Gheorghiu:

I saw Gheorghiu as Adina at Covent Garden, some years ago. I thought she was terrific.

I almost bought the CDs of this performance when I added a L'Elisir d'Amore to my collection a few years back, but in the end, went with what I knew from my LP days and bought the Cotrubas/Domingo version. Perhaps I should get the DVD to make up for it.

[knight66]

I am strongly considering the CD (not the DVD) of this Tosca.  I have not bought a new Tosca in a long time, is the Gheorghiu, Alagna, Raimondi, Antonio Pappano really the new standard as many commentators seem to think?

I've seen a few clips and she is very impressive.  This would be my first purchase of her in any role.

I urge you to explore Gheorghiu's recordings. Forget the hype, she is a terrific singer and a more than average actor with the voice.

You specified the CDs, I have them and feel it is the most successful version of the opera in the last 30 years. I would not want to be without Callas or Leontine Price with Karajan or Vishnevskaya. But all round excellence places this Pappano version high on my list.

Mike

[Franco]

I urge you to explore Gheorghiu's recordings. Forget the hype, she is a terrific singer and a more than average actor with the voice.

You specified the CDs, I have them and feel it is the most successful version of the opera in the last 30 years. I would not want to be without Callas or Leontine Price with Karajan or Vishnevskaya. But all round excellence places this Pappano version high on my list.

Mike

Thanks for your comments.  I felt it was a very good performance and wanted to check my reaction with others since I too was thinking along the lines of the best since Callas but the DVD does not interest me because of how it was produced, as a movie instead of a filmed live performance.

[TheGSMoeller]

My 3 year-old was watching Happy Feet 2 the other day, I was amused with this scene. I wasn't aware Puccini wrote a piece for the film. 



http://www.youtube.com/v/jQPL3K0pGQw&sns=em