5 Worst Composers Ever!!

[Dr. Dread]

In my case, of all the (famous, to narrow the focus) composers whose music I have heard, the ones that I listen the least are Bruckner, Wagner and Mahler. This doesn't imply at all they are bad composers : it's just that I don't feel the need to hear their music as often and with as much pleasure as, say, Schubert, Brahms or Chopin.

w00t!

[ChamberNut]

PS: I am an ardent Mozartean! 

I am too. 

[Tapkaara]

I'm glad to see that a lot of you understood the intent of my original post.

I agree with everything that has been said of Mozart's gifts as a composer. I even made mention of his gifts/abilities in an earlier post. I obviously could not think he is one of the worst composers if I made laudatory statements as I did, so again, I would appreciate it if folks do not take my statements on Mozart out of context. I never said he was one of "the worst." Period.



Now shall we move on to the other bizarre inclusions on my list, such as Schönberg? Or Glazunov? Or is Glazunov not a bizarre addition?

[ChamberNut]

Where is that 'beating a dead horse' emoticon? 

[Bulldog]

That was never my point, I listed all of those composers to demonstrate what it really means to rank someone as bottom of the barrel.  I doubt that anyone if they listened to only 10% of that list would still rank Mozart so very low.

I was not hunting him down, I was not crucifying him. 

It sure looked like you were hunting him down and giving him a few smacks.

[Florestan]

It sure looked like you were hunting him down and giving him a few smacks.

That was my impression too.

[monafam]

In regards to Glazunov -- Again (back to that "easy to please" notion in my first reply to this thread), I tend to like Glazunov's work.  There also must be others who do because of the amount of recordings out there for his works...

That being said, I haven't read a lot of really positive things about him, so he may not be all that "controversial" in this thread. 

[Florestan]

I tend to like Glazunov's work. 

That being said, I haven't read a lot of really positive things about him

So what? 

[monafam]

I only made the point about the comments I read as a possible indication why the choice of Glazunov wasn't a bigger issue.

Then again -- maybe it was the Mozartean-tangent that shrouded "Glaz"?   

[DavidW]

Of course, such a classification means nothing outside the reference frame, which is highly individual and personal in each case.

I not only understand that, I explained it in an earlier post.  My contention is that his frame of reference must be a very limited one.

In my case, of all the (famous, to narrow the focus) composers whose music I have heard, the ones that I listen the least are Bruckner, Wagner and Mahler. This doesn't imply at all they are bad composers : it's just that I don't feel the need to hear their music as often and with as much pleasure as, say, Schubert, Brahms or Chopin.

I've already said this-- I do not want to be lectured about opinion vs fact, it's condescending and beside the point.  That is not a legitimate defense of an opinion, it is A COP OUT.  "Well that's just my opinion" is not a valid rebuttal, it's a restatement of the obvious.  

I think that's what Tapkaara wanted to say in the case of Mozart. Maybe it's  perhaps the unfortunately worded "holy cow" part that upset you, but the essence of his position as decoded above I don't find objectionable in the least.

So what?  I do find it objectionable and that is what matters to me.  I don't care if you find it objectionable or not. I find it objectionable.

[karlhenning]

Doesn't matter Karl.  You cannot say Mozart is in the 5 worst composers, or 5 greatest composers.  You just can't.

Well, you can, really, Ray.  However, you can make a reasonable case that he is in the 5 greatest composers;  you can make a reasonable case, for a number of reasons, including (a) that his mastery of composition is (not merely as a matter of opinion) at a level markedly higher than his contemporaries, and (b) that his peers (right up to Haydn, another great composer) held him in rare esteem.  You cannot make any reasonable case that he is in the 5 worst composers.

That said:

AGAIN, to clarify. I NEVER said Mozart was one of the 5 worst composers. I said he was in my 5 LEAST FAVORITE. Isn't there a difference? (Refer to my first post in this thread, PLEASE!!!)

Sure there's a difference;  it's just a bit harder to nuance in a thread bearing the subject (to which Ray has amply objected) 5 Worst Composers Ever!!

You can however say that Mozart is one of your 5 favorite composers, of 5 least liked composers.  Period.

One can indeed.  That's one reason why (unless I am mistaken, which I might) I have not offered a list of the 5 Worst Composers Ever!! . . .

[karlhenning]

Well, and there's a difference between saying "five least favorite composers" and five composers whom you can't stand.

(Just saying.)

[karlhenning]

I have a feeling that most if not all of the posters here have not really listened to really bad music.

QFT

[Tapkaara]

Sure there's a difference;  it's just a bit harder to nuance in a thread bearing the subject (to which Ray has amply objected) 5 Worst Composers Ever!!

Point taken! Although I tried to clarify what I was saying, it did not come across as clear and I should have probably not posted in this thread at all.

[karlhenning]

I, for one, have heard lots of bad music!

Well, but not Mozart.  You may not like Mozart, you may perhaps even be unable to stand Mozart.  But to say that his music is bad music, casts question on your musical judgment.

Point taken! Although I tried to clarify what I was saying, it did not come across as clear and I should have probably not posted in this thread at all.

Spoken like a gentleman, sir.

[Florestan]

My contention is that his frame of reference must be a very limited one.

I know some Wagnerian for whom anything other than either Wagner or a big and loud orchestra is crap, Mozart included first and foremost. How's that for limitation?

So what?  I do find it objectionable and that is what matters to me.  I don't care if you find it objectionable or not. I find it objectionable.

That's obvious. But why do you take such seriously an opinion aired on an internet forum, in a sorry excuse of a topic?

Wait, now I'm doing the same, it's time to stop...  

[karlhenning]

Well, there is no scientific way of naming the 5 best composers or the 5 worst composers.

That's true; but then, music is culture, not science.  Scientific method is not what is wanted here.

. . . Wait, now I'm doing the same, it's time to stop... 

(* chortle *)

[karlhenning]

If Mozart is the worst, then you must consider the following to be better composers:

    * Lodovico Giustini (1685 - 1743)
    * Domenico Scarlatti (1685 - 1757)
    * Domenico Dalla Bella (fl. early 18th century, Venice)
    * Caterina Benedicta Grazianini (fl. early 18th century)
    * Maria Margherita Grimani (fl. early 18th century)
    * Giovanni Zamboni (fl. early 18th century)
    * Mlle Guédon de Presles (early 18th century–1754)
    * Curtis Morell (early 18th century–1754)
    * Jean-Baptiste Masse (c. 1700 - c. 1756)
    * Michel Blavet (1700 - 1768)
    * Johan Agrell (1701 - 1765)
    * Jean-Fery Rebel (the younger) (1701 - 1775)
    * Giovanni Battista Sammartini (c. 1701 - 1775)
    * Johann Ernst Eberlin (1702 - 1762)
    * Johann Gottlieb Graun (c. 1702-1771)
    * Carl Heinrich Graun (c. 1703-1759)
    * Rosanna Scalfi Marcello (fl. 1723–1742)
    * Carlos Seixas (1704-1742)
    * Giovanni Battista Pescetti (c. 1704 - c. 1766)
    * Santa Della Pietà (fl. c. 1725–1750, d. after 1774)
    * Carlo Cecere (1706 - 1761)
    * Baldassare Galuppi (1706 - 1785)
    * Georg Reutter (1708 - 1772)
    * Franz Benda (1709-1786)
    * Michel Corrette (1709 - 1795)
    * Christoph Schaffrath (1709 - 1763)
    * Princess Wilhelmine of Prussia (1709–1758)
    * Giovanni Battista Pergolesi (1710 - 1736)
    * Domenico Alberti (1710 - 1740)
    * Wilhelm Friedemann Bach (1710 – 1784)
    * Joshrup Basran (1710 - 1740)
    * Thomas Arne (1710 - 1778)
    * William Boyce (1711 - 1779)
    * Barbara of Portugal (1711–1758)
    * Frederick the Great (1712-1786)
    * John Stanley (1712 - 1786)
    * Johann Ludwig Krebs (1713 - 1780)
    * Per Brant (1714 - 1767)
    * Niccolò Jommelli (1714 - 1774)
    * Gottfried August Homilius (1714 - 1785)
    * Christoph Willibald Gluck (1714 - 1787)
    * Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach (1714 - 1788)
    * Georg Christoph Wagenseil (1715 - 1777)
    * Jacques Duphly (1715 - 1789)
    * Johann Friedrich Doles (1715-1797)
    * Hinrich Philip Johnsen (1716 - 1779)
    * Johann Wenzel Anton Stamitz (1717 - 1757)
    * Elisabeth de Haulteterre (fl. 1737–1768)
    * Mlle Duval (1718–after 1775)
    * Leopold Mozart (1719 - 1787)
    * William Walond (1719 - 1768)
    * Joan Baptista Pla (c. 1720-1773)
    * Maria Teresa Agnesi (1720–1795)
    * Johann Friedrich Agricola (1720-1774)
    * Johann Christoph Altnickol (1720-1759)
    * Pieter Hellendaal (1721-1799)
    * Johann Philipp Kirnberger (1721 - 1783)
    * John Garth (1721 - 1810)
    * Sebastián Ramón de Albero y Añaños (1722 - 1756)
    * Georg Benda (1722 - 1795)
    * Carl Friedrich Abel (1723 - 1787)
    * Anna Amalia Princess of Prussia (1723–1787)
    * Maria Antonia Walpurgis of Bavaria (1724–1780)
    * Claude Balbastre (1724–1799)
    * Miss Davis (c. 1726–after 1755)
    * Johann Becker (1726-1803)
    * Johann Gottlieb Goldberg (1727 – 1756)
    * Tommaso Traetta (1727 - 1779)
    * Armand-Louis Couperin (1727 - 1789)
    * Niccolò Piccinni (1728 - 1800)
    * Florian Leopold Gassmann (1729 - 1774)[1]
    * Giuseppe Sarti (1729 - 1802)[2]
    * Antonio Soler (1729 - 1783)
    * Pieter van Maldere (1729-1798)
    * Luise Adelgunda Victoria Gottsched (died 1762)
    * Christian Cannabich (1731 - 1798)
    * Elisabetta de Gambarini (1731–1765)
    * Joseph Haydn (1732 - 1809)
    * Josina Anna Petronella van Boetzelaer (1733–1787)
    * Anton Fils (1733 - 1760)
    * Benjamin Cooke (1734 - 1793)
    * François-Joseph Gossec (1734 - 1829)
    * Johann Gottfried Eckard (1735 - 1809)[3]
    * Johann Christian Bach (1735 - 1782)
    * Mme Papavoine (born c. 1735, fl. 1755-61)
    * Johann Georg Albrechtsberger (1736 - 1809)
    * Hélène-Louise Demars (b. c. 1736)
    * Michael Haydn (1737 - 1806)
    * Josef Mysliveček (1737 - 1781)
    * William Herschel (1738 - 1822)
    * Leopold Hofmann (1738 - 1793)
    * Anna Bon (born 1738/1739)
    * Karl Ditters von Dittersdorf (1739 - 1799)
    * Johann Baptist Vanhal (1739 - 1813)
    * Anna Amalia, Duchess of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach (1739–1807)
    * Mlle Guerin (born c. 1739, fl. 1755)
    * Isabelle de Charrière (1740–1805)
    * Luigi Gatti (1740 - 1817)
    * André Ernest Modeste Grétry (1741 - 1813)
    * Andrea Luchesi (1741 - 1801)
    * Giovanni Paisiello (1741 - 1816)
    * Václav Pichl (1741 - 1804)
    * Maria Carolina Wolf (1742–1820)
    * Luigi Boccherini (1743 - 1805)
    * Franz Nikolaus Novotny (1743 - 1773)
    * Anne Louise Boyvin d'Hardancourt Brillon de Jouy (1744–1824)
    * Marianne von Martínez (1744–1812)
    * Yekaterina Sinyavina (died 1784)
    * Carl Stamitz (1745 - 1801)
    * Maddalena Laura Sirmen (1745–1818)
    * Joseph Bologne, the Chevalier de Saint-Georges (1745 - 1799)
    * Marie Emmanuelle Bayon Louis (1746–1825)
    * Leopold Kozeluch (1747 - 1818)
    * Joseph Schuster (1748 - 1812)[4]
    * Henriette Adélaïde Villard de Beaumesnil (1748–1813)
    * Johann Nikolaus Forkel (1749-1818)
    * Domenico Cimarosa (1749-1801)
    * Jean-Frédéric Edelmann (1749-1794)
    * Maria Barthélemon (c. 1749–1799)
    * Antonín Kraft (c. 1749-1820)
    * Marianna von Auenbrugger (d. 1786)
    * Antonio Salieri (1750 - 1825)
    * Antonio Rosetti (c1750 - 1792)
    * Elizabeth Anspach (1750–1828)
    * Elizabeth Joanetta Catherine von Hagen (1750–1809/10)
    * Dmytro Bortniansky (1751 - 1825)
    * Maria Anna Mozart (1751–1829)
    * Mary Ann Pownall (1751–1796)
    * Corona Elisabeth Wilhelmine Schröter (1751–1802)
    * Mary Ann Wrighten (1751–1796)
    * Muzio Clementi (1752 - 1832)
    * Leopold Kozeluch (1752 - 1818)
    * Niccolò Antonio Zingarelli (1752 - 1837)
    * Juliane Reichardt (1752–1783)
    * Jane Savage (1752/3–1824)
    * Jean-Baptiste Bréval (1753 - 1823)
    * Vicente Martín y Soler (1754 - 1806)
    * Vincenzo Righini (1756 - 1812)
    * Giuseppe Antonio Capuzzi (1755 - 1818)
    * Countess Maria Theresia Ahlefeldt (1755–1810)
    * Mary Linwood (1755/6–1845)
    * Antoine-Frédéric Gresnick (1755 - 1799)
    * Francesca Lebrun also Franziska Danzi Lebrun (1756–1791)
    * Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1756 - 1791)
    * Joseph Martin Kraus (1756 - 1792)
    * Paul Wranitzky (1756 - 1808)
    * Daniel Gottlob Türk (1756-1813)
    * Ignaz Pleyel (1757 - 1831)
    * Harriett Abrams (1758–1821)
    * Josepha Barbara Auernhammer (1758–1820)
    * François Devienne (1759 - 1803)[5]
    * Franz Vinzenz Krommer (1759 - 1831)
    * Maria Theresa von Paradis (1759 - 1824)
    * Maria Rosa Coccia (1759–1833)
    * Sophia Maria Westenholz (1759–1838)
    * Luigi Cherubini (1760 - 1842)
    * Johann Ladislaus Dussek (1760 - 1812)
    * Marie-Elizabeth Cléry (1761–after 1795)
    * Erik Tulindberg (1761-1814)
    * Marcos António da Fonseca Portugal (1762-1830)
    * Joseph de Momigny (1762 - 1842)
    * Adelheid Maria Eichner (1762–1787)
    * Jane Mary Guest (1762–1846)
    * Ann Valentine (1762–1842)
    * Franz Danzi (1763 - 1826)
    * Adalbert Gyrowetz (1763 - 1850)
    * Étienne Méhul (1763-1817)
    * Johann Simon Mayr (1763 - 1845)
    * Helene de Montgeroult (1764–1836)
    * Franz Xaver Süssmayr (1766 - 1803)
    * Samuel Wesley (1766 - 1837)
    * Anne-Marie Krumpholtz (1766–1813)
    * Caroline Wuiet (1766–1835)
    * Wenzel Muller (1767 - 1835)
    * Julie Candeille (1767–1834)
    * José Maurício Nunes Garcia (1767 - 1830)
    * Carlos Baguer (1768 - 1808)
    * Elizabeth Weichsell Billington (c.1768–1818)
    * Margarethe Danzi (1768–1800)
    * Francesco Gnecco (1769 - 1810)
    * Cecilia Maria Barthélemon (c. 1769–1840)
    * Maria Theresa Bland (c. 1769–1838)
    * Kateřina Veronika Anna Dusíkova (1769–1833)
    * Maria Margherita Grimani (fl. 18th century)
    * Vincenta Da Ponte (fl. second half 18th century)
    * Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827
    * Ferdinando Carulli (1770-1841)
    * Ferdinando Paer (1771-1839)
    * Johann Baptist Cramer (1771-1858)
    * Lucile Grétry (1772–1790)
    * Maria Frances Parke (1772–1822)
    * Sophie Bawr (1773–1860)
    * Maria Brizzi Giorgi (1775–1822)
    * João Domingos Bomtempo (1775-1842)
    * Sophia Corri Dussek (1775–1847)
    * Margaret Essex (1775–1807)
    * Sophie Gail (1775–1819)
    * Maria Hester Park (1775–1822)
    * Johann Nepomuk Hummel (1778-1837)
    * Fernando Sor (1778-1839)
    * Pauline Duchambge (1778–1858)
    * Joachim Nicolas Eggert (1779-1813)
    * Louise Reichardt (1779–1826)
    * Anthony Philip Heinrich (1781-1861)
    * Sophie Lebrun (1781–1863)
    * John Field (1782-1837)
    * Niccolò Paganini (1782-1840)
    * Daniel Auber (1782-1871)
    * Louis Spohr (1784-1859)
    * Teresa Belloc-Giorgi (1784–1855)
    * Bettina Brentano (1785–1859)
    * Catherina Cibbini-Kozeluch (1785–1858)
    * Isabella Colbran (1785–1845)
    * Fanny Krumpholtz Pittar (1785–1815)
    * Pietro Raimondi (1786-1853)
    * Carl Maria von Weber (1786-1826)
    * Friedrich Kuhlau (1786-1832)
    * Marie Bigot (1786–1820)
    * Le Sénéchal de Kerkado (c. 1786–after 1805)
    * Nicolas Bochsa (1789-1856)
    * Elena Asachi (1789–1877)
    * Maria Agata Szymanowska (1789–1831)
    * Harriet Browne (1790–1858)
    * Louis Joseph Ferdinand Herold (1791–1833)
    * Carl Czerny (1791-1857)
    * Giacomo Meyerbeer (1791-1864)
    * Gertrude van den Bergh (1793–1840)
    * Amalie, Princess of Saxony (1794–1870)
    * Olivia Buckley (born mid-1790s–after 1845)
    * Franz Berwald (1796-1868)
    * Carl Loewe (1796-1869)
    * Helene Liebmann (1796–1835)
    * Emilie Zumsteeg (1796–1857)
    * Gaetano Donizetti (1797-1848)
    * Franz Schubert (1797-1828)
    * Annette von Droste-Hülshoff (1797–1848)
    * Mme Delaval (fl. 1791–1802)
    * Mme Ravissa (fl. late 18th century)
    * Ekaterina Likoshin (fl. 1800–1810)
    * Katerina Maier (fl. c. 1800)
    * Agata Della Pietà (fl. c. 1800)

You did get that list from Newman's book, didn't you? 

[DavidW]

I know some Wagnerian for whom anything other than either Wagner or a big and loud orchestra is crap, Mozart included first and foremost. How's that for limitation?

That's obvious. But why do you take such seriously an opinion aired on an internet forum, in a sorry excuse of a topic?

Wait, now I'm doing the same, it's time to stop...  

I take it seriously because Tapkaara's worth taking seriously.  It's not the kind of attention that he wants, but he earns it because he doesn't just write junk posts, or is deluded like Newman.

[DavidW]

You did get that list from Newman's book, didn't you? 

jeje