Author Topic: Beethoven in Period Performances  (Read 199489 times)

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Online Gurn Blanston

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2007, 03:27:46 AM »


Gurn, you are magnificent! The Eroica Q is now on my shortlist, thank you!

 :-[  :)

Haffner, check at BRO. I got mine there about 6 months ago, although one never knows at what rate they will turn over stock, they may still have it. :)

8)
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Haffner

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2007, 03:33:10 AM »
:-[  :)

Haffner, check at BRO. I got mine there about 6 months ago, although one never knows at what rate they will turn over stock, they may still have it. :)

8)




Thanks again! Being a bit of a weirdo myself, I tend to live for things like the hopefully-soon-upcoming Quatuor Mosaiques rendition of the late quartets like op. 131 and 132.

Okay, now you know I have no life whatsoever :D!

Online Gurn Blanston

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2007, 03:35:11 AM »



Thanks again! Being a bit of a weirdo myself, I tend to live for things like the hopefully-soon-upcoming Quatuor Mosaiques rendition of the late quartets like op. 131 and 132.

Okay, now you know I have no life whatsoever :D!

;D

Of course, I would never do that.   ::)

(when is it expected out?:)

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Haffner

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2007, 03:36:44 AM »
;D

Of course, I would never do that.   ::)

(when is it expected out?:)

8)


You'll be first to find out

after me!

 8) 8)

Offline Bunny

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #44 on: April 10, 2007, 06:59:58 AM »
There's Stephanie Chase's reading on the Cala label, with Goodman and The Hanover Band (coupled with the two Romances). I must say I really like that one. The opening timpani solo is so much more impactful done HIP, to my ears. And that is so important, with this simplest and most all-pervasive of motives.



How is the sound quality on that recording?  Does it share the same problem of excessive reverb as the symphonies? 

lukeottevanger

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2007, 12:57:18 AM »
How is the sound quality on that recording?  Does it share the same problem of excessive reverb as the symphonies? 

I don't have those recordings to compare it to, but I do have the Hanover Band's Schubert symphony set (that Gurn was praising) and I think the recording quality here is superior. However, my copy is faulty and skips all the way through the third movement and the two Romances, so I'm only judging the first two movements of the Concerto!

George

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #46 on: April 11, 2007, 02:19:17 AM »
I think its time I've heard my Weil/Tefelmusik CD of the 5th and 6th symphonies. Will report back later.  :)

I heard this yesterday during the Great GMG Crash of 2007.  ;D.

I really liked it. The faster tempos took a little getting used to and it didn't displace any of my favorites, but it sure was refreshing. The orchestra was often difficult to hear over the din of NYC, so I think I'll listen to this one at home from now on. I loved the transparency of the orchestra and boy, Tafelmusik sure surprised me with an intense storm in the Pastoral. the sonics were impeccable. I need to hear this one again before saying more, but so far, so good.  :)

Offline edward

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2007, 03:40:26 AM »
There's Stephanie Chase's reading on the Cala label, with Goodman and The Hanover Band (coupled with the two Romances). I must say I really like that one. The opening timpani solo is so much more impactful done HIP, to my ears. And that is so important, with this simplest and most all-pervasive of motives.


I keep hearing good reports of this recording: guess I'll have to pick it up whenever I see it.
"I don't at all mind actively disliking a piece of contemporary music, but in order to feel happy about it I must consciously understand why I dislike it. Otherwise it remains in my mind as unfinished business."
 -- Aaron Copland, The Pleasures of Music

Haffner

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #48 on: April 11, 2007, 04:01:01 AM »
I heard this yesterday during the Great GMG Crash of 2007.  ;D.

I really liked it. The faster tempos took a little getting used to and it didn't displace any of my favorites, but it sure was refreshing. The orchestra was often difficult to hear over the din of NYC, so I think I'll listen to this one at home from now on. I loved the transparency of the orchestra and boy, Tafelmusik sure surprised me with an intense storm in the Pastoral. the sonics were impeccable. I need to hear this one again before saying more, but so far, so good.  :)


Interesting how the tempos were sped up. Being that I haven't heard HiP LvB, I can't help but being interested, especially in the rendition of the 6th.

I'm getting really curious now as to an HiP performance of my LvB Symph. "faves" (nos. 1, 3, 4, and 9).

Offline Bunny

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #49 on: April 11, 2007, 05:15:51 AM »
I heard this yesterday during the Great GMG Crash of 2007.  ;D.

I really liked it. The faster tempos took a little getting used to and it didn't displace any of my favorites, but it sure was refreshing. The orchestra was often difficult to hear over the din of NYC, so I think I'll listen to this one at home from now on. I loved the transparency of the orchestra and boy, Tafelmusik sure surprised me with an intense storm in the Pastoral. the sonics were impeccable. I need to hear this one again before saying more, but so far, so good.  :)

Faster than what?  Faster than Zinman? Dausgaard? Vänskä (only the 5th so far)? All of these new Barenreiter edition cycles use Beethoven's metronome markings and are paced similarly.  I've finally cracked the seal and I didn't find that these symphonies were so fast, but rather right in there with the others.

George

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #50 on: April 11, 2007, 05:33:36 AM »

Haven't heard any of those recordings that you mentioned, Bunny I merely meant the faster tempos employed by the HIP movement. Faster than the tempos that preceeded them (Szell, Klemperer, Furtwangler, etc.)

Offline Bunny

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #51 on: April 11, 2007, 06:03:12 AM »

Interesting how the tempos were sped up. Being that I haven't heard HiP LvB, I can't help but being interested, especially in the rendition of the 6th.

I'm getting really curious now as to an HiP performance of my LvB Symph. "faves" (nos. 1, 3, 4, and 9).

Haven't heard any of those recordings that you mentioned, Bunny I merely meant the faster tempos employed by the HIP movement. Faster than the tempos that preceeded them (Szell, Klemperer, Furtwangler, etc.)


Listening to the Tafelmusik 6 and 5, I don't find either that much faster than what I've been listening to recently.

Szell, Klemperer, Furtwängler all tended to use tempos that were slower than Beethoven's metronome markings, but that was only one tradition.  If you listen to the Toscanini cycle, the first thing you notice is the speedier tempos which were also observed by some other conductors (including Leibowitz and Krips).  Also, to the best of my recollection, Karajan's Pastoral ('63 cycle) was famous for being one of the fastest (and imo worst) on disc.  Szell seemed to find his own way: faster than Furtwängler and slower than Toscanini.  For big band versions of these symphonies that are HIP influenced, you cannot do better than Zinman or Vänskä (who actually uses the full orchestra, but has such amazing control that he gets the most pianissimo of playing so that incredible dynamic range and transparency result).

I don't believe it's accurate to say the HIP movement speeded up the tempos, but rather restored them to the composers original intentions after being slowed down by conductors who deliberately  dismissed the markings as inaccurate.  I'm sure that everyone here is familiar with the old "Karl got it wrong" story?  For those who don't remember it or  haven't heard it, for years and years it was believed that Karl von Beethoven, the conductor's nephew who worked as his uncle's scribe, consistantly misread the new metronomes that Beethoven used to note his tempos.  If you have ever seen a picture of the wind up metronomes of the type used by Beethoven you know that there is a weight on a pendulum, and the top of the weight shows the speed marking.  According to many, Karl Beethoven was a bit confused and read the (lower) wrong end of the marker for the speed, thus speeding up the tempos from what his uncle intended.  Later scholarship refuted this story, and the performance of Beethoven was correspondingly speeded up.  Problems still exist in the timings of the individual symphonies, especially the Ninth (Norrington's discussions of this are still controversial). 



Harry

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #52 on: April 11, 2007, 06:05:16 AM »
Excellent post Bunny, enjoyed reading it! :)

Offline Bunny

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #53 on: April 11, 2007, 06:21:43 AM »
Thanks, Harry. :D

Btw, the Tafelmusik recording is really excellent.  They seem to get everything right with these two symphonies.  The hall it's recorded in has some reverb, not not so much that the transparency gets muddied; just enough so that the sound of the orchestra gets very good "space" around it and the tympani gets extra punch.  All in all, an extremely enjoyable foray for Tafelmusik into the Beethoven symphonies.  I do hope they go on to complete the cycle.  Next on my listening list is their new recording of Mozart's 40 and 41.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2007, 06:25:29 AM by Bunny »

Haffner

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #54 on: April 11, 2007, 06:59:30 AM »
Excellent post Bunny, enjoyed reading it! :)



I agree, great job!

Although Harry gets a bit irritated at me for stating this, the 1963 6th is the only HvK rendition of Beethoven I don't care for

That written, the rest of those 1963 HvK LvB Symphonies are the Standard of Standards, in my most humble opinion.

Harry

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #55 on: April 11, 2007, 07:12:04 AM »


I agree, great job!

Although Harry gets a bit irritated at me for stating this, the 1963 6th is the only HvK rendition of Beethoven I don't care for

That written, the rest of those 1963 HvK LvB Symphonies are the Standard of Standards, in my most humble opinion.

Well of course you are allowed your little transgression my friend, but in all fairness, I humbly disagree with you, and am not being irritated! :) by your deviation from the fact that Karajan rules, even in the sixties! ;D

Haffner

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #56 on: April 11, 2007, 07:17:02 AM »
Well of course you are allowed your little transgression my friend, but in all fairness, I humbly disagree with you, and am not being irritated! :) by your deviation from the fact that Karajan rules, even in the sixties! ;D


Forgive please, as this is off topic, but I still prefer Herbert Von Karajan's conducting of Mozart's last 6 Symphonies to any other renditions. The "Jupiter" is probably my all-time favorite piece by any composer, and Von Karajan makes the fourth movement in particular sound like angels are playing the instruments. Bernstein, et al never topped that rendition in my opinion.

Online Gurn Blanston

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #57 on: April 11, 2007, 07:19:08 AM »


I agree, great job!

Although Harry gets a bit irritated at me for stating this, the 1963 6th is the only HvK rendition of Beethoven I don't care for

That written, the rest of those 1963 HvK LvB Symphonies are the Standard of Standards, in my most humble opinion.

In fact, despite the potential for transgressing the unwritten law, I will add my name to the list of those who find the weak point of HvK '63 to be the 6th. Otherwise, it is my favorite cycle on modern instruments... :)

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Harry

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #58 on: April 11, 2007, 07:24:38 AM »

Forgive please, as this is off topic, but I still prefer Herbert Von Karajan's conducting of Mozart's last 6 Symphonies to any other renditions. The "Jupiter" is probably my all-time favorite piece by any composer, and Von Karajan makes the fourth movement in particular sound like angels are playing the instruments. Bernstein, et al never topped that rendition in my opinion.

You know that's funny, but that's a recording that does nothing for me, in fact I always thought that the Symphonies of Haydn and Mozart were outside of Karajan's realm.
But since you like them, I will try them!

Harry

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #59 on: April 11, 2007, 07:26:48 AM »
In fact, despite the potential for transgressing the unwritten law, I will add my name to the list of those who find the weak point of HvK '63 to be the 6th. Otherwise, it is my favorite cycle on modern instruments... :)

8)

Well maybe you could point out to me what the shortcoming is of the 6th symphony, for I find no fault. :)
But I listen almost 14 hours of music each day if I can help it! so maybe I just went deaf because of that! ;D