Havergal Brian.

[Maestro267]

Listening to this recently I strayed next into Mackerras' recording of the Second (also on KH) , and then I was reminded of a recent comment on the Art-Music
*Thinking of the Third I was reminded of the Hyperion recording by Friend. Whatever its merits it had the usual silly track divisions from Hyperion at that period where instead of simply the dividing the piece by movements they would try to cue analysis points using the tracks (ie Track 1 Introduction, Track 2 first subject &c) (obviously this obscures the relative lengths of the movements and could much more easily done by writing the timings in the CD booklet, ie 'at 2:05 the first subject begins...'&c). For the Third the final track was the Epilogue to the fourth movement, all four bars of it c. 25 seconds! LOL

I've never understood that. Naxos are guilty of it too, in most of their Brian symphony recordings. For example, to listen to Symphony No. 25, I have to skip to track 20 to start it.

[krummholz]

I've never understood that. Naxos are guilty of it too, in most of their Brian symphony recordings. For example, to listen to Symphony No. 25, I have to skip to track 20 to start it.

I've noticed that too (in Naxos), and find it VERY annoying for the most part. One exception is in the Gothic, where I found it somewhat helpful to follow the descriptions in the booklet in the choral part (and the sung text, where the words were often difficult to make out) when I was just getting to know the work. But it's completely unhelpful now and overall, yes, they really should just have stuck to one track per movement.

Well I got a "just shipped" notice on my order from Klassic Haus a couple of days ago but the USPS tracking number was invalid. Tried today and it is apparently enroute from Oklahoma City as of this morning, so I should be seeing it in a few days. Looking forward to it!

[cilgwyn]

Indeed! Very annoying,having to program in a multitude of tracks too;if you want to hear just one work. Also,the momentary 'breaks' in the sound,if the music is continuous,if you've used the 'program' button. Maybe,more expensive players than mine,can deal with this. Either way,I just don't find this kind of tracking helpful in an orchestral work. They must think we're a bit stupid if they think we need that kind of help!!

Anyway,that aside! I listened to the Charles Groves performance of the Gothic Symphony last night. The sound is not exactly hi-fi ,but your ears soon adjust. At least mine did;and I found I could hear all the necessary detail. I must say,I really enjoyed this performance. I hadn't really given it that much attention before. It made me wish Groves had been able to conduct the whole work. It also made me realise how well the first three movements can work on their own!

A question,now,about the Groves performance. Was this performance ever broadcast on the radio? If not,I wonder what the origination of this off-air tape is? Was it a private recording?
I will look at the HB website as soon as I have the time.

I also,compared the Klassic Haus reissue of the third symphony with Dundonnell's off-air tape. Thank you Dundonnell (not that he's here any more) for providing me with my first listen to the Pope recording,since my original tape finally got chewed up by an errant tape recorder. The sound really does open up in the Klassic Haus restoration. The thunderous closing moments of the finale,a case in point. I kept the cd-r of Dundonnell's off-air tape recording as a memento,by the way!!
On a less happy note ,I remember after downloading the Klassic Haus restoration of the third,saying that I bet I find out that I've got it already. Sure enough,it finally turned up,yesterday evening. There it was,on the cd-r I made much earlier! Klassic Haus! I'd written it on the cd-r. Oh well ,the more downloads of HB they get the better. Memo: Must look harder next time before opening up my wallet!!

Another Klassic Haus recording I listened to was their issue of Brian Rayner Cook's Wine of Summer. I can hear what Albion means about his singing. Brian Rayner Cooke isn't usually one of my favourite singers (not that I dislike his singing,especially) but listening to this performance reminded me of just how good this performance is. Brian Rayner Cook really does have a special understanding of this music;and I really wouldn't want to be without it. It is a magnificent performance,imho. I hope the recording is given a commercial cd release one day. I'm sure it will be,eventually. I'm just glad we've got this Klassic Haus restoration,and the Dutton recording is so good! I might add that his recording of the songs is equally superb. The Mark Stone recordings were very disappointing. On a more positive note,the the accompanying booklet (I only bought the first cd) was very good. I kept it for all the detailed information it provides about the songs and their authors. I seem to remember Brian's landlord being amongst them,and a story,along the lines that he was so pleased that he let Brian stay rent free,or lowered the rent?!!

I have the Poole recording of Das Siegeslied on at the moment. Again,it sounds absolutely stunning in the Klassik Haus resoration. I hate to say this John. But I am actually enjoying this work! Poole's performance really gets under the skin of this music. The second movement is particularly magnificent;bringing out all the sinister opulence.

[krummholz]

My Dutton Brabbins 2/14 CD arrived today! Will be listening to at least #2 later... when I have an hour to spare.

For now, just to report that my order of the Klassic Haus 3rd was lost! USPS tracking listed it as delivered to my mailbox on Saturday morning, but I distinctly recall having checked my box on Saturday and it was not there. Today I followed through all possible leads, including the Post Office which had a GPS locator record of it being scanned in front of my house at the time given on the tracking record. Very strange!

So I sent off an email to Klassic Haus, and wonder of wonders, a very nice gentleman named Curt Timmons answered within 2 hours and promised to send off another copy by Priority Mail!

So it looks like I will receive it (hopefully) by early next week. But I do have to put in a plug for the customer service at Klassic Haus, which is truly outstanding!

[John Whitmore]

I'm sure the download is fine, but all I have on my computer is small, low-fidelity speakers and no way to burn a CD. I ordered the CD - shipping was free! Have no idea how long it will take to arrive; I don't know where they ship from, or even if they have an outlet in the US, though my guess is they do given the free shipping.

Curt Timmons will be shipping from his home in Oklahoma.

[John Whitmore]

Indeed! Very annoying,having to program in a multitude of tracks too;if you want to hear just one work. Also,the momentary 'breaks' in the sound,if the music is continuous,if you've used the 'program' button. Maybe,more expensive players than mine,can deal with this. Either way,I just don't find this kind of tracking helpful in an orchestral work. They must think we're a bit stupid if they think we need that kind of help!!

Anyway,that aside! I listened to the Charles Groves performance of the Gothic Symphony last night. The sound is not exactly hi-fi ,but your ears soon adjust. At least mine did;and I found I could hear all the necessary detail. I must say,I really enjoyed this performance. I hadn't really given it that much attention before. It made me wish Groves had been able to conduct the whole work. It also made me realise how well the first three movements can work on their own!

A question,now,about the Groves performance. Was this performance ever broadcast on the radio? If not,I wonder what the origination of this off-air tape is? Was it a private recording?
I will look at the HB website as soon as I have the time.

I also,compared the Klassic Haus reissue of the third symphony with Dundonnell's off-air tape. Thank you Dundonnell (not that he's here any more) for providing me with my first listen to the Pope recording,since my original tape finally got chewed up by an errant tape recorder. The sound really does open up in the Klassic Haus restoration. The thunderous closing moments of the finale,a case in point. I kept the cd-r of Dundonnell's off-air tape recording as a memento,by the way!!
On a less happy note ,I remember after downloading the Klassic Haus restoration of the third,saying that I bet I find out that I've got it already. Sure enough,it finally turned up,yesterday evening. There it was,on the cd-r I made much earlier! Klassic Haus! I'd written it on the cd-r. Oh well ,the more downloads of HB they get the better. Memo: Must look harder next time before opening up my wallet!!

Another Klassic Haus recording I listened to was their issue of Brian Rayner Cook's Wine of Summer. I can hear what Albion means about his singing. Brian Rayner Cooke isn't usually one of my favourite singers (not that I dislike his singing,especially) but listening to this performance reminded me of just how good this performance is. Brian Rayner Cook really does have a special understanding of this music;and I really wouldn't want to be without it. It is a magnificent performance,imho. I hope the recording is given a commercial cd release one day. I'm sure it will be,eventually. I'm just glad we've got this Klassic Haus restoration,and the Dutton recording is so good! I might add that his recording of the songs is equally superb. The Mark Stone recordings were very disappointing. On a more positive note,the the accompanying booklet (I only bought the first cd) was very good. I kept it for all the detailed information it provides about the songs and their authors. I seem to remember Brian's landlord being amongst them,and a story,along the lines that he was so pleased that he let Brian stay rent free,or lowered the rent?!!

I have the Poole recording of Das Siegeslied on at the moment. Again,it sounds absolutely stunning in the Klassik Haus resoration. I hate to say this John. But I am actually enjoying this work! Poole's performance really gets under the skin of this music. The second movement is particularly magnificent;bringing out all the sinister opulence.

Have you been to see your doctor? Very worrying turn of events.....

[John Whitmore]

My Dutton Brabbins 2/14 CD arrived today! Will be listening to at least #2 later... when I have an hour to spare.

For now, just to report that my order of the Klassic Haus 3rd was lost! USPS tracking listed it as delivered to my mailbox on Saturday morning, but I distinctly recall having checked my box on Saturday and it was not there. Today I followed through all possible leads, including the Post Office which had a GPS locator record of it being scanned in front of my house at the time given on the tracking record. Very strange!

So I sent off an email to Klassic Haus, and wonder of wonders, a very nice gentleman named Curt Timmons answered within 2 hours and promised to send off another copy by Priority Mail!

So it looks like I will receive it (hopefully) by early next week. But I do have to put in a plug for the customer service at Klassic Haus, which is truly outstanding!

Curt Timmons is Klassik Haus. He's a one man band (so to speak!).

[krummholz]

Curt Timmons is Klassik Haus. He's a one man band (so to speak!).

Ha! Good to know!

So I've only listened once to the Brabbins #2 and so won't comment much on it, since I've only known the Rowe version and not so well - I found the work so opaque in Rowe's hands that I rarely listened to it. I will say that I had a much more positive impression after listening to the Brabbins - the second movement in particular sounds much more coherent to me now, and the "battle scherzo" really roars! I will try to listen to both versions in the coming days to compare, but that might have to wait - work is taking up much of my time.

My Pope 3rd came from KH (aka Mr. Timmons) yesterday - it was clearly the first shipment, mysteriously placed by someone in my mailbox, a week late with no note to explain what happened. I will have to return the second package to KH when it arrives. But of course I listened to it right away. I know the 3rd quite well in the Friend reading on Hyperion so had definite impressions of the differences in the two interpretations. I was impressed straight off by the opening; under Pope there is more of a rocking feeling to the "habanera" and the bite of the brass really comes through. There were some places where I felt the ensemble was about to fall apart - in particular the cross-rhythms in the passage leading up to the recapitulation sounded muddied and unintelligible to me on first hearing. Overall I like Pope's approach better than Friend's in this movement. He keeps the tension high and forward momentum going much better; the development section, especially, sounds more episodic in the Friend.

I agree with cilgwyn about the "sinister opulence" that comes through in the 2nd movement! Quite different from Friend, again less episodic-feeling, with more continuity overall. This is such a fantastic movement, Brian at his most evocative and imaginative! But again, in places the textures seem so dense in the Pope that I found it hard to relate the many lines to each other musically. This is a feeling I don't get from the Friend.

In the scherzo the two readings seem to converge, so not much to say. (As an aside, every time I hear that first theme, I'm reminded of the corresponding theme in Brahms' 4th for some reason. I don't know if Brian had that idea in the back of his mind when he wrote it, or if I'm just spouting rubbish.)

I like Pope's finale as well - again he shapes the music better than Friend does IMO, and makes the final triumph sound almost inevitable, seemingly a hard thing to bring off. Again there were places though where I had trouble making musical sense of the textures, something that has never been a problem for me listening to Friend.

They are both great readings and I like them both! I think I have a slight preference for Friend still, but that might be just "imprinting" and I may grow into the Pope with time. One comment about the sound: listening through headphones I could detect many small dropouts in different frequency ranges throughout the recording, and even a touch of distortion in a few places (though that might have been in my equipment). I'm pretty sure the dropouts would not be noticeable through speakers. Still quite a wonderful performance to have available in decent sound after all these years.

[John Whitmore]

Ha! Good to know!

So I've only listened once to the Brabbins #2 and so won't comment much on it, since I've only known the Rowe version and not so well - I found the work so opaque in Rowe's hands that I rarely listened to it. I will say that I had a much more positive impression after listening to the Brabbins - the second movement in particular sounds much more coherent to me now, and the "battle scherzo" really roars! I will try to listen to both versions in the coming days to compare, but that might have to wait - work is taking up much of my time.

My Pope 3rd came from KH (aka Mr. Timmons) yesterday - it was clearly the first shipment, mysteriously placed by someone in my mailbox, a week late with no note to explain what happened. I will have to return the second package to KH when it arrives. But of course I listened to it right away. I know the 3rd quite well in the Friend reading on Hyperion so had definite impressions of the differences in the two interpretations. I was impressed straight off by the opening; under Pope there is more of a rocking feeling to the "habanera" and the bite of the brass really comes through. There were some places where I felt the ensemble was about to fall apart - in particular the cross-rhythms in the passage leading up to the recapitulation sounded muddied and unintelligible to me on first hearing. Overall I like Pope's approach better than Friend's in this movement. He keeps the tension high and forward momentum going much better; the development section, especially, sounds more episodic in the Friend.

I agree with cilgwyn about the "sinister opulence" that comes through in the 2nd movement! Quite different from Friend, again less episodic-feeling, with more continuity overall. This is such a fantastic movement, Brian at his most evocative and imaginative! But again, in places the textures seem so dense in the Pope that I found it hard to relate the many lines to each other musically. This is a feeling I don't get from the Friend.

In the scherzo the two readings seem to converge, so not much to say. (As an aside, every time I hear that first theme, I'm reminded of the corresponding theme in Brahms' 4th for some reason. I don't know if Brian had that idea in the back of his mind when he wrote it, or if I'm just spouting rubbish.)

I like Pope's finale as well - again he shapes the music better than Friend does IMO, and makes the final triumph sound almost inevitable, seemingly a hard thing to bring off. Again there were places though where I had trouble making musical sense of the textures, something that has never been a problem for me listening to Friend.

They are both great readings and I like them both! I think I have a slight preference for Friend still, but that might be just "imprinting" and I may grow into the Pope with time. One comment about the sound: listening through headphones I could detect many small dropouts in different frequency ranges throughout the recording, and even a touch of distortion in a few places (though that might have been in my equipment). I'm pretty sure the dropouts would not be noticeable through speakers. Still quite a wonderful performance to have available in decent sound after all these years.

Bear in mind that this transfer is taken from a shoddy bootleg LP by Aries that uses an off the air recording. The restoration has many flaws and dropouts but that's unavoidable I'm afraid. Every time a click or pop is removed the sound is affected. There are also some changes in tape hiss here and there, all down to the source material. Maybe one day the BBC will release the original tapes onto CD but I wouldn't hold your breath in anticipation. There is nothing wrong with your equipment - it's the CD, warts and all. I prefer Pope to Friend overall in terms of musicality but Friend is less sloppy. He had the benefit of multiple takes compared to a one off performance on the radio. Glad you like it!

[John Whitmore]

I just came across this.

[DaveF]

I have the Poole recording of Das Siegeslied on at the moment. Again,it sounds absolutely stunning in the Klassik Haus resoration. I hate to say this John. But I am actually enjoying this work! Poole's performance really gets under the skin of this music. The second movement is particularly magnificent;bringing out all the sinister opulence.

Thanks for that heads-up.  Just downloaded it for £3.94 at today's rate (MP3 - didn't think it was worth getting the FLAC).  Das Siegeslied sounds absolutely tremendous.

[John Whitmore]

Thanks for that heads-up.  Just downloaded it for £3.94 at today's rate (MP3 - didn't think it was worth getting the FLAC).  Das Siegeslied sounds absolutely tremendous.

I love that pic of Carl Nielsen, Dave F!!

[DaveF]

I love that pic of Carl Nielsen, Dave F!!

Taken, as I'm sure you know, from the so-called Klovneark or "Clown sheet":


one of the few pictures I know of a composer being really really silly, although the one at the head of this page:
http://www.hindemith.info/fr/leben-werk/unbekannter-hindemith/
runs it close and may furnish me with a future avatar.  Do we have a thread for funny pictures of composers?

[John Whitmore]

Taken, as I'm sure you know, from the so-called Klovneark or "Clown sheet":


one of the few pictures I know of a composer being really really silly, although the one at the head of this page:
http://www.hindemith.info/fr/leben-werk/unbekannter-hindemith/
runs it close and may furnish me with a future avatar.  Do we have a thread for funny pictures of composers?

My favourite composer.

[cilgwyn]

Posting about the Nordic feel of some of Daniel Jones' earlier symphonies,and some affinities shared by Brian and Jones (Daniel not Corporal! ) ie,the cragginess,alleviated by a certain lyricism and a flair for colourful orchestration;got me thinking again,about european influences in Brian's earlier symphonies. The main influences,apparent to my ears,are composers like Mahler and Bruckner. Even then,any influences are all pretty well assimilated,and subsumed,by Brian's very personal soundworld. Comparisons have been made,over the years,between the Gothic and Mahler (particularly,for obvious reasons,the eighth) but the only comparison really is in the size of the forces and scale of the two works. If I had to pick the most 'Mahlerian' Brian symphony,it would be No 2. The most 'Brucknerian' would be No 3. I believe Brian admired Sibelius,but the only comparison really is the move towards more terse,concentrated structures in the later symphonies. One of Brian's heroes was Berlioz;and I presume this might have had some influence on the composition of the Gothic symphony;if only in the scope and scale of the forces used,and the,sometimes,colourful choice of instrumentation.
As to whether,John Williams was influenced by a hearing (off air?) of the Gothic Symphony,when he was composing the music for Jaws,I have no idea?!! But,I don't think so?!!

[Christo]

As to whether,John Williams was influenced by a hearing (off air?) of the Gothic Symphony,when he was composing the music for Jaws,I have no idea?!! But,I don't think so?!!

As I never dared to watch this horror movie, nor consciously heard the music accompanying it, it might help if you could clarify this suggestion a bit: does John Williams also make use of 16 horns, 12 trumpets, 11 trombones, 10 tubas, 6 sets of timpani, 6 sets of cymbals, 4 choirs and 2 triangles, or only the one bird scarer - or what? 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

 

It's the opening figure of the Gothic - that oscillation between D and F on 'cellos, basses, bassoons and tubas, which is uncannily reminiscent of the shark motif in Jaws (on the basses).

[Karl Henning]

More so than the snapping minor second which opens the final movement of the New World Symphony?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

More so than the snapping minor second which opens the final movement of the New World Symphony?

That work is so much more obscure than the Gothic.

[Karl Henning]

That work is so much more obscure than the Gothic.

Especially to a US composer!