Havergal Brian.

[vandermolen]

For me, Brian's appeal is his relevance to the 'Zeitgeist'.

The West has become largely secular and we take our philosophy of life from scientists - especially from 'celebrity' scientists like Stephen Hawking and Richard Dawkins.

And these guys tell us that existence is nothing more than the outworking of the laws of physics. There's no inherent meaning to life - although we can pretend there is, in order to avoid going nuts (or we can just take antidepressants, as the militant atheist philosopher Alex Rosenberg recommends in his book 'The Atheist's Guide to Reality'.)

The phrase which sticks in my mind is the "blind, pitiless indifference of the universe" (Richard Dawkins)

And this is why Brian appeals to me. Here is this dogged figure, singing his song despite the utter indifference of the cosmos (not to mention that of the musical establishment!) His life could almost be a metaphor for our age.

I hear this especially in the 10th symphony, with its violin melody pitted against elements which suggest the forces of nature (the 'storm') and the vastness and impassiveness of the universe (the 'still point' with its stellar twinklings, and that 'Sphinx like' brass chord near the end.)

I've always found it interesting that the "Gothic", in which Brian (IMHO) expressed his loss of any orthodox religious faith, was followed by a symphony subtitled "Man in his Cosmic Loneliness"!

How wonderfully expressed - I find this post rather moving.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

And this is why Brian appeals to me. Here is this dogged figure, singing his song despite the utter indifference of the cosmos (not to mention that of the musical establishment!) His life could almost be a metaphor for our age.

I hear this especially in the 10th symphony, with its violin melody pitted against elements which suggest the forces of nature (the 'storm') and the vastness and impassiveness of the universe (the 'still point' with its stellar twinklings, and that 'Sphinx like' brass chord near the end.)

I have never been an atheist, and Brian's 'Nothing matters' philosophy never rang true to me. In an article Brian wrote in the 1930s, about 'How The Gothic Came To Be Written' for a magazine called 'Modern Mystic' (!), he said that there was a mystery in his work and he wanted to get at the heart of it (I summarise in my own words). You don't compose your whole life with the conviction that nothing has any value and that a meaning to life is non-existent. That is why, to these ears, the ending of the Tenth is not bleak. The solo violin seems, haltingly, tentatively, to implore the universe, and a sort of protective and consoling voice (basses, bassoons), with an ascending line in harp and glockenspiel, seems to answer...

[Christo]

Great discussion here, enjoy it with all my heart.

[relm1]

I have never been an atheist, and Brian's 'Nothing matters' philosophy never rang true to me. In an article Brian wrote in the 1930s, about 'How The Gothic Came To Be Written' for a magazine called 'Modern Mystic' (!), he said that there was a mystery in his work and he wanted to get at the heart of it (I summarise in my own words). You don't compose your whole life with the conviction that nothing has any value and that a meaning to life is non-existent. That is why, to these ears, the ending of the Tenth is not bleak. The solo violin seems, haltingly, tentatively, to implore the universe, and a sort of protective and consoling voice (basses, bassoons), with an ascending line in harp and glockenspiel, seems to answer...

With all due respect my old friend, you presume an atheist is not spiritual or that you don't compose with the conviction that nothing has any value and that a meaning to life is non-existent.  Being an Atheist can be extremely liberating and spiritual in a sense.  The perfect model is Ralph Vaughan Williams who was not a deist but very spiritual in his writing.  I probably fall in this category and HB might as well.  I don't think you accurately characterize our belief. 

[vandermolen]

Great discussion here, enjoy it with all my heart.

+1 

[Christo]

The perfect model is Ralph Vaughan Williams who was not a deist but very spiritual in his writing.

With due permission, I was thinking of my 'soulmate' since I was 15 too. Completely dissimilar to Brian, of course, but there are a few comparisons to be made. The better known Vaughan Williams composed in the first person, e.g. symphonies 1-5, but then went over to the third person, symphonies 6-9, with that magical moment at the very end of the Sixth's opening Allegro, when he glances back during a few fragrant bars and then resolutely transcends them in the final bars, never to look back again (not even in the Eight's Cavatina). These latter symphonies are often described in terms as if the spiritual Pilgrim of the Fifth now moves into unknown territories as Beethoven's tragically striving hero, now alone against the infinite Universe. There is a point, there's also another side. Vaughan Williams had moved beyond his 'atheism' into the 'cheerful agnosticism' (Ursula Vaughan Williams) of his latter days and one can easily see that his spirituality now moves into new directions too. For the lonely hero of his latter symphonies is also met with a new 'fulfillment' that is the opposite of the bleakness of the Universe he encounters at the same time. Especially the Ninth is flowing over with a newly found spiritual wisdom and it is this intense awareness of 'meaning', not the supposed atheism of his formal creed, that moves the listener. So yes: formally atheist composers can be very spiritually rich in musical reality. 

[calyptorhynchus]

I've never understood MacDonald's report of HB's comment "nothing matters" as evidence of thorough-going nihilism (though maybe MacDonald does). I think of it more in the Buddhist sense of being without attachments.

[Florestan]

Great discussion here, enjoy it with all my heart.

+ 1.

Makes me want to start exploring Brian (and RVW) immediately: believe it or not, I've never heard one note of the former's music so far, and very little of the latter's. Plus, I'm a theist (not to be confused with atheist).

[John Whitmore]

Rehearsals in Leicester, 1972. That was my first exposure to Brian. Initial thoughts at those rehearsals - what the hell is this c**p! I'm not a massive fan but he has his moments. I admire his dogged "who gives a stuff" mentality. He would be overwhelmed to see this thread and staggered to find out that all his symphonies have now been recorded professionally. Every dog has his day and you know what - I don't think his day has yet arrived. Maybe in 20 years time, due to CD exposure, a handful of the man's compositions will become regular repertoire pieces. You never know. Mahler was hardly ever heard in the 1950s but he's now a cult figure admired all over the world. Only time will tell.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Christo's post re atheism-agnosticism in music is illuminating.I have moved from a very spiritual agnosticism into faith (2014). And Brian is still there.

One tantalising fact: very late in life Brian wanted to set a psalm to music (choral piece). 'The fool in his heart says there is no God'...

The man remains an enigma.

[Leggiero]

Yes, this! I also like what other people may consider to be his shortcomings, such as once in a while, half way through and idea he'd go into a tangent which(seemingly) leads to nowhere. But this IS how we think, how we search, how we explore, isn't it? To me, these thought are more "real" and I can relate to them.

In full knowledge that this will blow my cover (if it even still exists) for those of you who also read said organ, I'm hoping that an upcoming issue of the HBS Newsletter will include a short piece by yours truly exploring related ideas, and bearing the title "Is Brian's Music More Pertinent than Ever in Our Age of Information Overload?"

[John Whitmore]

+ 1.

Makes me want to start exploring Brian (and RVW) immediately: believe it or not, I've never heard one note of the former's music so far, and very little of the latter's. Plus, I'm a theist (not to be confused with atheist).

Try this by way of a nice introduction. From the telly in 1972.
https://youtu.be/9f7_wiFeDIU

[Florestan]

Try this by way of a nice introduction. From the telly in 1972.
https://youtu.be/9f7_wiFeDIU

Thanks. Will watch the whole thing asap.

[John Whitmore]

Thanks. Will watch the whole thing asap.

I sent you the link to part 1 of 3. You will find parts 2 and 3 on Youtube and see the composer himself being interviewed. Marvellous stuff.

[Klaatu]

I too am fascinated by Brian's intention, around the time of writing Symphony 19, to compose a setting of Psalm 53:

<<The fool hath said in his heart: "there is no God">>

As Malcolm MacDonald commented:
'The fact that Brian contemplated a work on these words sheds a strange light on his public avowals of atheism"

Brian also made a comment about his attitude to prayer:
"I hold the belief that the only practical prayer is that of the inner voice and urge, such as in the old fable of Hercules and the Wagoner, who, when his wagon got stuck in the mud, prayed to Hercules to come to his aid. The voice replied, "Man - help thyself" "

I have come to the conclusion that Brian had (for his day) quite unusual metaphysical beliefs. He probably avowed atheism in public to make things simpler, but I reckon he lost his belief in the God of the Bible, and discovered instead the God of Max Planck.

Certainly I think he could have been described as 'spiritual, not religious' which sums up the attitude of many people today - and which is again, probably why his music holds such fascination for contemporary listeners. (I think the recent rise in Vaughan Williams' stature might be an example of the same phenomenon.)

[Christo]

+ 1.
Makes me want to start exploring Brian (and RVW) immediately: believe it or not, I've never heard one note of the former's music so far, and very little of the latter's. Plus, I'm a theist (not to be confused with atheist).

For me, as an imperfect Christian, both atheism and theism are just 'our little systems that have their day and cease to be / they are but broken lights of Thee' to paraphrase Alfred Lord Tennyson. In heavens, there is place for both. 0:)

Christo's post re atheism-agnosticism in music is illuminating. I have moved from a very spiritual agnisticism into faith (2014). And Brian is still there.

One tantalising fact: very late in life Brian wanted to set a psalm to music (choral piece). 'The fool in his heart says there is no God'...

The man remains an enigma.

Yes and no. Apparently, Brian had a soul. 

[Florestan]

For me, as an imperfect Christian, both atheism and theism are just 'our little systems that have their day and cease to be / they are but broken lights of Thee' to paraphrase Alfred Lord Tennyson. In heavens, there is place for both. 0:)

I knew I should've written "Christian theist", but I couldn't resist a little pun. 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Apparently, Brian had a soul.

You shock me. 

[Christo]

I knew I should've written "Christian theist", but I couldn't resist a little pun. 

And I know you love your Christian atheist neighbour too. 

The point here is, that none of us here can escape from the strongly spiritual - even religious - dimensions of both Brian's and Vaughan Williams' music. And that for us, their musical message is more telling than anything else they may have maintained.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Being a writer myself, I know my work reveals more about me than anything I as a person can tell about myself. So - agreed.