Havergal Brian.

[cilgwyn]

About time. I'm listening to side 2 of my Dolby cassette copy right now. I turned the recording level down slightly for the repeat. It sounds 'MARVELLOUS' to me. And the tape's not bad too.
I will sort out Mp3's,FLACS & CD-r's as soon as I have a bit more time.
Hope there will be more.

[cilgwyn]

I like the bit about the green shaded table lamp. What a difference to that silly 'Nice' review.

[Brian]

Oh dear me. I feel a third essay coming on - like the second one, only tangentially related to the Gothic. This time, more centrally a manifesto for a certain approach to the art of criticism!

By the time I finish responding to this concert there may be a book

[Dundonnell]

Oh dear me. I feel a third essay coming on - like the second one, only tangentially related to the Gothic. This time, more centrally a manifesto for a certain approach to the art of criticism!

By the time I finish responding to this concert there may be a book

Go for it, Brian! I'll buy the book(and you can buy mine! )

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Oh dear me. I feel a third essay coming on - like the second one, only tangentially related to the Gothic. This time, more centrally a manifesto for a certain approach to the art of criticism!

By the time I finish responding to this concert there may be a book

Write on. I concur wholeheartedly with your views on ambition (and I 'hate' Frantzen).

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

That quote sounds okay, Jeffrey!

[Brian]

The third essay is already only a few sentences away from completion. I shall sleep on it, edit it down from its precarious 1,700 word perch tomorrow, and then send it off to MusicWeb for a change in venue!

(and I 'hate' Frantzen).

It always makes me feel a little better when a fellow communicator also fails to understand all the madness over Franzen... not surprising, though, because your Wallace/Federer comment strikes perilously close to my stylistic ambitions...!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

It always makes me feel a little better when a fellow communicator also fails to understand all the madness over Franzen... not surprising, though, because your Wallace/Federer comment strikes perilously close to my stylistic ambitions...!

Haha!


(don't know why I added that 't' to Franzen's name)

[Brian]

Seen and Heard's excellent review is by a fellow who sang in the Gothic's 1961 premiere!

Perhaps the best lines:
"Brian was super-prolific. And curiously, he didn't seem to be quite as despondent as others that his music remained largely unperformed. For him, the glory was mainly in the industry of creation; beside that, all else mattered less. What a truly romantic notion of the artist."

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Just reposting this from the Koechlin thread:


When the shattering climax of the third movement was reached, the lights went on, illuminating the choirs. It is a cataclysmic moment, the choirs stood up, the soloists entered from two sides, slowly walking to the front of the stage - it was as if the giant chords at that moment had woken humanity itself.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Well, I wasn't there. I'll download the FLACs and will listen a few times, just to see what the fuss is all about. And if's ever performed in New York, I'll go.

But for the devoted admirers here, it seems fine for Brian (our Brian) to express his positive views on Brian (the other Brian) after only one hearing, but not fine for the London critics to express their reservations towards Brian (again you-know-who) after only one hearing.

I've heard the Gothic Symphony a few times on the Marco Polo CDs, and each time I found it grandiose, overlong, bombastic, disjointed, and banal. So go ahead, sharpen your knives. But I'm not alone, as witness some reactions to the review by David Nice:

Comment Link  Monday, 18 July 2011 12:58 posted by Steve
Finally a critic with ears! Admittedly this wasn't a concert to stand through, as I did, but by the end of the piece I was grateful to be released for musical as much as physical reasons. Compositionally the piece is a mess, let's face it; fragmented and tangental with a sense of profundity that it neither possesses nor deserves. In fact, I couldn't help but feel that Brian's "He who strives with all his might, him can we redeem" nonsense was more an excuse for his insipid and indulgent symphony than a source of inspiration.

Comment Link  Monday, 18 July 2011 11:37 posted by Alec
Well said, David Nice. There's definitely a small strand of music lovers for whom rarity (and often sheer size and impracticability) is a qualification for unfairly neglected greatness. For these people, being part of a tiny minority of initiates makes them feel superior. So those of us who think Brian was actually just a fantasist of modest musical talent are by definition unable to understand his greatness.

JZ Herrenberg holds that he "simply wants good music to get its due." That's fine, but if that's the case, let's not bring Henry V into it, even in jest. I don't hold my manhood cheap or think myself accurs'd for having missed the thing.

I wouldn't mind the fervor towards Brian so much if it weren't that whenever aspersions are directed towards genuinely great composers like Mozart or Bach, the forum shrugs off such comments with utter indifference. After all, we are told, not everybody has to like everything, there's enough music to go around, and similar latitudinarian comments. And if someone (like yours truly) protests the arrogance of such reactions (we have been authoritatively told here that Bach has "feet of clay," not that's it's actually necessary to hear much of his music to make such a claim), he can be sure to be greeted with personal invective along the lines of "It's just my opinion, if I don't like it I don't like it, so what's your problem?"

But say a word against the all-holy Havergal Brian!!!!! and you prove yourself silly (cilgwyn), unserious (Guido), uninformed and unprofessional (Sgt. Rock), facile, rude, and intellectually lazy (Klaatu), truculent and ignorant (Legge), asinine (5against4), self-important (Hatoff), sad but amusing, predictable, pontificating, hopelessly out-of-touch (Luke), and similar ad hominem attacks. Case in point (5against4): "Without wishing to denigrate other reviewers [before he goes on to do just that], i was rather shocked to find so many of the other responses i've seen written in such a off-handedly dismissive fashion. I must say i was tempted to edit out Tom Service's asinine remarks, but wanted to preserve the totality of the evening! That boy [italics mine] will never learn..."

Naturally, the possibility that the reviewer is expressing a sincere reaction and is addressing genuine limitations in the music must be discounted.

Such defensiveness. Why can't those who don't buy into the cult be treated with the same respect as the fervent admirers? Why can't the Brianistas (with their "inside" allusions to "Malcolm" and "Bob") admit that their admiration for this composer is not free from resentment towards those who are indifferent to him? (Remember Elliott Carter's comment that half the reason he liked The Rite of Spring so much on first hearing was that half the audience walked out.) As the Guardian put it, the "Gothic Symphony is the ultimate cult neglected work by a British composer forgotten by all but the fanatical few."

Methinks the Brianites protest too much. And that such reactions towards the opposition do more harm to their composer than good.

[Brian]

(p)Sf, while I feel better-prepared, as a fellow Brian newcomer who hasn't yet listened to the symphony a second time, to let somebody else address your post, I do want to bring to your attention another first-time listener like myself who was able to skip the emotional response and fireworks of airy adjectives (sorry for mine!), and instead write a musical analysis of what he heard. The essay is here and it's thought-provoking, because the author found the symphony more "thought-provoking" than "good" or "bad"... it's more of a tentative listening guide than a review either way, so I've bookmarked it and will be reading it when I decide to give the "Gothic" another go. It does make a case for the piece being something more than empty blasting, though it doesn't return a full verdict, either.

EDIT: There is, however, some very silly speculation about whether Beethoven would have liked it, and a few more remarks about composers like Schoenberg which are, shall we say, unconventional at best.

[Mirror Image]

I wouldn't mind the fervor towards Brian so much if it weren't that whenever aspersions are directed towards genuinely great composers like Mozart or Bach

Define "genuinely great" and how it actually applies to reality and not your own opinion.

[cilgwyn]

Okay,Nice's review was very clever, I really enjoyed it and the Gothic symphony a mess and overlong. Are you happy now?
I just found his review badly written and immature. He didn't have anything interesting to say. It was just an excuse for allot of snide remarks and sniggering.I really don't have a problem with bad reviews of Brian,whatsoever,as long as they are intelligent and reasonably erudite. As far as I'm concerned you can say what you like about him. And,hang on, who said anything about him being 'holy'? I don't know of anyone here who actually prays to him!
This IS a Havergal Brian thread,so I suppose it's hardly a suprise that there are a few people who like him here.

[cilgwyn]

Bad reviews? Bring 'em on!

[Mirror Image]

Okay,Nice's review was very clever, I really enjoyed it and the Gothic symphony a mess and overlong. Are you happy now?
I just found his review badly written and immature. He didn't have anything interesting to say. It was just an excuse for allot of snide remarks and sniggering.I really don't have a problem with bad reviews of Brian,whatsoever,as long as they are intelligent and reasonably erudite. As far as I'm concerned you can say what you like about him. And,hang on, who said anything about him being 'holy'? I don't know of anyone here who actually prays to him!
This IS a Havergal Brian thread,so I suppose it's hardly a suprise that there are a few people who like him here.

Perhaps it is Sforzando who can't stand the fact that Brian is getting positive attention from board members? It sounds like to me that he has an inability to accept that Brian's music is gaining admirers.

[Albion]

Well, I wasn't there.

I've heard the Gothic Symphony a few times on the Marco Polo CDs, and each time I found it grandiose, overlong, bombastic, disjointed, and banal. So go ahead, sharpen your knives. But I'm not alone, as witness some reactions to the review by David Nice:

JZ Herrenberg holds that he "simply wants good music to get its due." That's fine, but if that's the case, let's not bring Henry V into it, even in jest. I don't hold my manhood cheap or think myself accurs'd for having missed the thing.

I wouldn't mind the fervor towards Brian so much if it weren't that whenever aspersions are directed towards genuinely great composers like Mozart or Bach, the forum shrugs off such comments with utter indifference. After all, we are told, not everybody has to like everything, there's enough music to go around, and similar latitudinarian comments. And if someone (like yours truly) protests the arrogance of such reactions (we have been authoritatively told here that Bach has "feet of clay," not that's it's actually necessary to hear much of his music to make such a claim), he can be sure to be greeted with personal invective along the lines of "It's just my opinion, if I don't like it I don't like it, so what's your problem?"

But say a word against the all-holy Havergal Brian!!!!! and you prove yourself silly (cilgwyn), unserious (Guido), uninformed and unprofessional (Sgt. Rock), facile, rude, and intellectually lazy (Klaatu), truculent and ignorant (Legge), asinine (5against4), self-important (Hatoff), sad but amusing, predictable, pontificating, hopelessly out-of-touch (Luke), and similar ad hominem attacks.

Such defensiveness.

Methinks the Brianites protest too much. And that such reactions towards the opposition do more harm to their composer than good.

I can't quite understand why you have felt the need to contribute gratuitously to this thread, especially such a personally-offensive and fatuous addition: the music of Havergal Brian clearly does not impress you in the least - but then I don't really think that anybody will worry about that fact for too long.

Each of the individuals maligned by your good self clearly gets great pleasure from Havergal Brian's music and I am sure none would presume to force their opinions on others, but would merely wish to highlight the fact that with little-known composers the greater the research undertaken, the greater the ability to criticise with authority. It seems that none of the professional critics commenting on this most recent performance had even scratched the surface of the available literature regarding the work or the composer (Rapoport, Truscott, Macdonald, et al.). The reviewer may be "expressing a sincere reaction", but it might be questioned whether or not is a fully-informed one.

Mozart and Bach are quite "safe", I'm sure - but with sui generis composers like Brian, special advocacy is needed for them to obtain a hearing (whether deserved or otherwise) and that comes from organisations such as the Havergal Brian Society and the passionate individuals who form it's constituent body. I don't think that even the most fervent admirer of Brian would claim that he is a genius towering over the twentieth century, but instead would argue that he has his place and it is one which only greater familiarity will shape.

[karlhenning]

This IS a Havergal Brian thread,so I suppose it's hardly a suprise that there are a few people who like him here.

Sure, but discounting a negative review of the concert 'because' it was written by some who "rubbished" a Myaskovsky symphony . . . no one objects to the Brian Appreciation mission of the thread, but (poco) Sfz's point about circling the wagons against anyone who doesn't dig the music, remains well taken.

[Sergeant Rock]

But say a word against the all-holy Havergal Brian!!!!! and you prove yourself silly (cilgwyn), unserious (Guido), uninformed and unprofessional (Sgt. Rock)

My remark was directed solely against critics who don't bother to prepare for a hearing, and others who don't even bother to listen to the entire performance but still feel somehow qualified to dismiss it. That's not only lazy it's unethical. Whether anyone else likes Brian or not is utterly irrelevant to me as long as they've had the decency to actually listen to the music with an open mind.

I'm genuinely shocked by your post. I wouldn't have expected it from you. Seriously.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

Appreciation mission of the thread, but (poco) Sfz's point about circling the wagons against anyone who doesn't dig the music, remains well taken.[/font]

Bullshit