Havergal Brian.

[cilgwyn]

Oh dear,after typing that,I've just seen Johan's post!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Great minds...

[cilgwyn]

Of course,Holmes,apparently,made some 'simplifications'(!),so I suppose it is a bit rich of me to judge. Yet,like the LSSO performance of Brian's 10th v the Dutton,I just prefer the earlier reading,and I'm  not JUST referring to Bisengaliev's playing,I mean the conducting of the orchestra as well.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Bisengaliev's live performance of the VC at the 21st anniversary of the HBS (1995) was better than his recording. I was there, at St James's Church Piccadilly (and so was fellow member Christo, and perhaps others?!) I also prefer the Holmes, in spite of his simplifications. And I think I still prefer the LSSO Tenth, too...

[cilgwyn]

I'm sure. Not knocking him. He's obviously a wonderful musician & who the hell am I to criticise him! I just find more poetry,insight and feeling in the earlier reading & the pacing of the performance feels just right.

[John Whitmore]

Incidentally,I hope BBC Legends will eventually release these:

The Poole Das Siegeslied
The Wine of Summer with Brian Rayner Cooke
Ralph Holmes Violin Concerto

I'm jumping the gun of course!

If Das Siegeslied is ever released let's hope it's just on bail and it reoffends 

[John Whitmore]

Of course,Holmes,apparently,made some 'simplifications'(!),so I suppose it is a bit rich of me to judge. Yet,like the LSSO performance of Brian's 10th v the Dutton,I just prefer the earlier reading,and I'm  not JUST referring to Bisengaliev's playing,I mean the conducting of the orchestra as well.

I doubt very much that Ralph made simplifications. He probably made some mods to postion changes etc to make it "sound" properly. I bet the score is a mess with errors all over the place! He was a magnificent player, a tremendous teacher and one of this country's greatest ever talents. Died at a tragically young age. His Delius is wonderful. Lovely bloke too.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I love Holmes in Delius and Brian. His professionalism isn't in doubt. But neither is Brian's... I quote from the booklet I bought at that memorable concert in 1995:

"Like most of Brian's important scores, the Violin Concerto had to wait a long time for its first performance, but it found a champion at last in the late Ralph Holmes, who recorded two performances for the BBC and played the Concerto in public at St. John's Smith Square, London. Holmes made some simplifications of Brian's cruelly taxing solo part, but for his recording with the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra under Lionel Friend and for tonight's performance, Marat Bisengaliev has restored it exactly as the composer intended."


I own the score, by the way (expensive thing, bought when I was richer than I am now!)

[John Whitmore]

I love Holmes in Delius and Brian. His professionalism isn't in doubt. But neither is Brian's... I quote from the booklet I bought at that memorable concert in 1995:

"Like most of Brian's important scores, the Violin Concerto had to wait a long time for its first performance, but it found a champion at last in the late Ralph Holmes, who recorded two performances for the BBC and played the Concerto in public at St. John's Smith Square, London. Holmes made some simplifications of Brian's cruelly taxing solo part, but for his recording with the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra under Lionel Friend and for tonight's performance, Marat Bisengaliev has restored it exactly as the composer intended."


I own the score, by the way (expensive thing, bought when I was richer than I am now!)

I stand corrected, Johan. Did Brian work with a violinist during the compositional process or do it "on the hoof" so to speak? Bisengaliev may have restored it to the "original version" but this original version (let's call it a first draft) could well have benefitted from some professional input a la the Tchaik concerto. What I mean is that Brian may well have changed the work had he heard the thing performed - again, I have no idea whether or not he had the opportunity to hear it or not, either at the piano with a soloist or in orchestral rehearsal. For "cruelly taxing" read "poorly written" to be really cynical. I've not heard Ralph but have the Marco Polo - the solo writing sounds a bit clumsy like a first draft. The playing is fine, the recording OK. If the Holmes becomes available I would love to hear what he did to the piece. The violin concerto, like so much of Brian, always sounds to my ears as if it's not quite finished and that the composer was starved of the opportunity to listen to the music and make changes accordingly. I find this frustrating. It's like listening to the first draft of Sibelius 5 (very imperfect) and not being able to hear the fully developed masterpiece. Maybe had Elgar treated Brian a bit more kndly and helped him into the mainstream, criticisms such as mine would never have been necessary. Being totally ignored just didn't help. Even the master orchestrator Elgar needed practical help during the composition of his own truly world class fiddle concerto. I'm not knocking Brian, just showing a bit of annoyance that the bloke didn't get much help in bringing his ideas and structures to a satisfying conclusion - my own subjective opinion, I hasten tio add. I will now cleanse myself by playing Bartok 2. Wonderful stuff.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Brian knew what he was doing. He was a professional music critic, was present at countless rehearsals and concerts, studied scores voraciously and knew and mixed with musicians and composers. He was not ignorant or isolated. His music was simply not played a lot after World War I. As for his writing for the violin(s), here are two pertinent quotes from Malcolm MacDonald, lifted from the chapter 'Brian and the Orchestra' in vol. 3 of his classic study:

"(...) it is certainly the case that we can often find the complete harmonic and contrapuntal essentials of the musical fabric embedded in the brass parts alone. There is a concomitant effect on the ictus of the music - the 'kick' of the beat - which is felt differently when communicated by blown instruments rather than those which are bowed or struck. It also seems to affect Brian's notation, in that he has a tendency to write for the strings in the flat keys that best favour the brass, without any enharmonic alterations to take account of string-players' preference for the sharp ones: another reason why Brian is not exactly the violinists' favourite composer." (p. 205)

"Never could it be said that Brian neglected the violins. Every symphony bristles with passages of hair-raising difficulty, and he developed several highly individual trademarks in writing for them - such as a short burst of very rapid notes to produce a curious effect like the call of a bird or small animal... (example for Symphony No. 7) Moreover, very nearly all the symphonies contain at least one prominent violin solo - sometimes of considerable length and virtuoso standard. (...) But there seems to be a general consensus that players frequently find the writing ungrateful and unidiomatic - sometimes almost to the point of perversity. In addition to the notational problems mentioned earlier, Brian demands awkward leaps and a great deal of rapid passage-work that lies uneasily under the fingers, much of it in very high registers, some of it cruelly exposed, apparently calculated to cause havoc with ensemble and intonation. (The same problems occur in countless modern scores, of course, but players seem less prepared for them in what appears to them a less 'advanced' idiom.) In addition Brian blithely directs changes from pizzicato to arco, and the putting-on or removal of mutes, in an inhumanly short space of time (the problem of mutes is sometimes extended to the brass as well). One wonders whether Brian's childhood violin lessons were in some way painful to him, and whether that might account for the marked lack of sympathy he seemed to feel for the poor orchestral violinist even while at the same time he availed himself of the instrument's entire expressive capacity. And there is no question that when he wrote such passages, he expected faultless execution: perfect intonation, whipcrack rhythmic precision. The nearer to such an ideal the performance approaches, the better his violin-writing sounds; when playing merely average or routine, Brian's music - and especially its string-writing - suffers worse than most." (p. 226-227)

[John Whitmore]

Brian knew what he was doing. He was a professional music critic, was present at countless rehearsals and concerts, studied scores voraciously and knew and mixed with musicians and composers. He was not ignorant or isolated. His music was simply not played a lot after World War I.

Johan, I'm in no way implying that Brian didn't know what he was doing. Many people treat him as a total amateur and he certainly wasn't that and it is really insulting to the man to suggest this to be the case. Being a professional criitic, reading scores and mixing with musicians is all well and good. He certainly wasn't ignorant or isolated. What he suffered from was the oxygen of actually hearing what his dots actually sounded like. I agree with the quotes you included about the strings. Not only are the keys generally unkind - best suited to brass bands! - but the writing is awkward. I'm sorry but that's what it is. Awkward. I honestly think that his craftsmanship would have been sharpened up if he had been in a position to listen to the music and then edit it accordingly - most of the great composers did this and there's no shame in it. As you know, I have mixed views on Brian but certainly enjoy more of his music than I used to do. Unfortunately the awkwardness just will not go away and this is a severe weakness. Indeed it's probably a key reason why the music hasn't featured on the desks of the great international orchestras and conductors. Over to you ........

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I take your point that it is unhelpful not hearing your mature works played for a very long time. It is a bit like not being read for a writer. When you are a published author, you discover how people can react to the way you have transformed your vision into style. And through this you can hone your craft. Brian was denied this. And that's a pity. The greatest artists combine, as Ernest Newman once wrote about Wagner, a piercing vision and a consummate style. Brian undoubtedly had the piercing vision. The way he transformed that vision into notated sound certainly has its awkwardnesses. Whether he would have ironed these out if he had been more successful, or would have found different and more easily executable solutions that would have done justice to the vision just as well, we'll never know. As it is, the awkwardnesses such as they are are a problem mainly for the players, not for the listeners. I love that Brian sound, and his vision comes through loud and clear. I hope players, too, will come to think that the extraordinary world this music discloses more than compensates for the incidental groan it may sometimes elicit in the playing of it...

[John Whitmore]

I take your point that it is unhelpful not hearing your mature works played for a very long time. It is a bit like not being read for a writer. When you are a published author, you discover how people can react to the way you have transformed your vision into style. And through this you can hone your craft. Brian was denied this. And that's a pity. The greatest artists combine, as Ernest Newman once wrote about Wagner, a piercing vision and a consummate style. Brian undoubtedly had the piercing vision. The way he transformed that vision into notated sound certainly has its awkwardnesses. Whether he would have ironed these out if he had been more successful, or would have found different and more easily executable solutions that would have done justice to the vision just as well, we'll never know. As it is, the awkwardnesses such as they are a problem mainly for the players, not for the listeners. I love that Brian sound, and his vision comes through loud and clear. I hope players, too, will come to think that the extraordinary world this music discloses more than compensates for the incidental groan it may sometimes elicit in the playing of it...

Good repost old chap. Actually the right word is riposte

[Wanderer]

Coming in December! 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Coming in December! 

To a theatre near you. 

[John Whitmore]

To a theatre near you. 

If it's Delph theatre it will be very cosy. Only holds 100.

[mc ukrneal]

Coming in December! 

Presto says Nov 28! 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Presto says Nov 28! 

Which is correct, the anniversary of Brian's death (1972).

[Luke]

And of my birth...  0:)

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

And of my birth...

"Luke, I am your father!"