Havergal Brian.

[Christo]

(Listening to the marvellous new Dutton cd of the Bate & Reizenstein. Exciting. Off topic,I know,but there's SO MUCH music out there!)

Thanks for mentioning this new release! Bate's third and fourth symphonies have been revelations, as is hiw viola concerto on another Dutton cd. For me, he's the biggest discovery in years, even more so than e.g. Arnell.

(Completely OOT, I know. Back to Brian  )

[Philip Legge]

Boult's performance of the Gothic is a great exploratory reading of the work; he may not have been present at Fairfax's world première five years earlier, whereas any conductor coming to the work now will have many previous interpretations to consider. For that reason alone the Boult version is a great acheivement, but it is by no means without flaws and weaknesses. First of all, Boult has a very good overall grasp of the structure of the work but occasionally he did choose tempi that don't work, or seem to go directly against Brian's descriptions.

Particularly where the choral music is concerned, we have the fastest reading on record, and the tempi chosen for the a cappella passages are at times frankly unbelievable; I am almost convinced Boult was concerned that the difficulty of some of the a cappella music might lead to either (a) unrecoverable flatness, like the Proms choirs sinking an entire semitone in 12 bars, or (b) complete train wreck, requiring a stop and an arbitrary re-start; and that as a result of these fears, he chose some tempi purely to get through the difficult passages as quickly as possible, without a view to their musical weight or emphasis.

To speak of myself, in the last 20 years that I've known the Gothic, for 18 of those years I only had access to one recording: Lenárd's. (The HBS has a CD loaning system to share recordings between its members, but Australia is too far away to be regularly posting CDs back and forth.) Lenárd's reading is something of a polar opposite to Boult's – if Boult has a slow tempo, you can almost guarantee Lenárd will be fast (and likewise Boult : fast :: Lenárd : slow). So although this would imply I prefer slow speeds for the choral sections, this is only provisional because non-ridiculous speeds can make music out of them. Temperamentally I tend to be in favour fast tempi but not at the cost of losing impact or the ability to "milk" a passage for its full worth.

The orchestral playing by Boult's heavily augmented BBC orchestra is highly good for its day, though I think it fails to display the magic of the superlative LSO under Schmidt fourteen years afterwards, and the recording quality is likewise good for 45 years ago: both recordings made in the last year easily surpass it on technical grounds judged by the work of the recording engineers or the standard of the orchestral playing.

Cligwyn: the last I heard, a CD of Brisbane is still strongly desired by the 4MBS team, but the knowledge that the Proms would quickly follow after the Queensland performance, and an equally speedy release by Hyperion cannot be said to have helped matters at all. In addition, the rights holders have at every turn attempted to milk as much revenue from their property as possible and a CD involves more demands for revenue to clear release. For such reasons I suspect a commercial release will not be viable, and a limited performers-only release a doubtful fallback from that.

[Dundonnell]

Thank you very much, Philip, for that considered and most helpful response

I fully appreciate the points that you make. It is certainly more than possible that Boult was indeed motivated by the concerns you mention. Had the piece ground to a horrid standstill it would have done HB and
his cause grievous harm.

Sadly I did not attend the Boult Proms performance although my late father had that pleasure

What I do still have though is the letter written to me later that same night by Malcolm MacDonald. Malcolm travelled from Cambridge to be present. He got back to Downing College late at night but in the
white heat of excitement and enthusiasm sat down to write me a very lengthy review of the performance with his impressions both of the music and of Boult's interpretation. The letter still makes quite
fascinating reading

There is something though about the 1966 reading which never fails to affect me. Perhaps it is the fact that it was the first professional performance, perhaps the fact that HB himself was in the audience.
There is that extra frisson. I know that I shall always feel that sense of a bold and brave journey into the music

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Thanks for all the reactions to Colin's Boult post. I have been very busy (still am), that's the reason I've been so silent.

Philip's contribution especially is another sterling one and I agree with him from a strictly musical viewpoint. But - I am with Colin, too. I have known the Boult performance for almost 30 years, to me it WAS 'The Gothic' for a very long time and when Lenard's recording came around, it wasn't able to replace or topple Boult. With the Boult performance I always get a feeling of awe when I am nearing the end, the sense of having arrived in one of the highest and loneliest places of the mind, which no other performance has ever been able to reproduce for me, though Brabbins came close last July. His 'In te, Domine, speravi' is miraculous. Now there are 5 performances and there is much to compare. Boult will always be special, he is 'hors concours' as far as I am concerned. Still, if I want to have excitement and drive, Curro is my choice; if I want to have a cool head and a firm grasp, Brabbins is my man.

[cilgwyn]

Thank you for your response to my post,Johan. It's disappointing 'news' about the Brisbane performance,but,with the current economic climate,it's understandable,I suppose & the Prom performance did rather steal their thunder. Still.in this day & age we do have the luxury of downloads and making our own cds of the occassion.
There certainly is 'something',a special excitement,to a premiere performance,especially one attended by the composer. I love it myself. There's also something special about the first performance you ever heard,particularly when you were young,which is why the Schmidt will always have a place close to my heart. The one I DON'T like is the Lenard,although it will always have a special place in the Brian discography. Mind you,those choirs do sound good!
(Off topic,but I've still got that Bate/Reizenstein Dutton cd on 'Repeat all'. Can't get enough of it. I hope it's arrived at a certain address in Perth!)

[John Whitmore]

Thanks for all the reactions to Colin's Boult post. I have been very busy (still am), that's the reason I've been so silent.

Philip's contribution especially is another sterling one and I agree with him from a strictly musical viewpoint. But - I am with Colin, too. I have known the Boult performance for almost 30 years, to me it WAS 'The Gothic' for a very long time and when Lenard's recording came around, it wasn't able to replace or topple Boult. With the Boult performance I always get a feeling of awe when I am nearing the end, the sense of having arrived in one of the highest and loneliest places of the mind, which no other performance has ever been able to reproduce for me, though Brabbins came close last July. His 'In te, Domine, speravi' is miraculous. Now there are 5 performances and there is much to compare. Boult will always be special, he is 'hors concours' as far as I am concerned. Still, if I want to have excitement and drive, Curro is my choice; if I want to have a cool head and a firm grasp, Brabbins is my man.

It's interesting that all of a sudden there is a range of Gothics to choose from all with variable sound and styles of interpretation. Who would have thought this in the pre Lenard days? Just to put my two 'appeth on the table:
1) Schmidt's LSO and Whittaker on xylo take some beating from an orchestral perspective. Best orchestral playing by a mile.
2) Boult is the only truly world class conductor in the list. A fabulous musician with his three foot long stick and miniscule movements. He brings to the Gothic the same sort of elegance and beauty that can be found in his Brahms and Elgar. The BBC orchestra come a very close 2nd to the LSO.
3) Brabbins. This also has good playing to commend it and I sense something very special is taking place. I also like the RAH sound funnily enough and some passages have tremendous bite e.g. the contra bassoon and basses.
4) Lenard. Hats off to him despite some of the criticism. His Marco Polo recording and the LSSO 10th started the Brian ball rolling for many people. This should not be forgotten. I personally don't like the studio acoustic much and the playing is good to average.
5) Brisbane. This is a strange one. As an overall interpretation it's top of my own list. In terms of orchestral playing it comes bottom of the pile - many ragged passages and numerous fluffs. BUT.....there is a sense of occasion about it and I really enjoy listening to it. It communicates and that's the most important thing. Again, hats off to them for staging the monster. Did they pull it off? Definitely yes.
In truth, most people who aren't "into" Brian would get pleasure from all of these recordings. That's a pretty healthy position for the Gothic to be in. Just to go off topic, here's a recording that came through the mail only last week. I doubt if any of you have heard it but then again you are such a well educated mob I might be totally wrong
http://youtu.be/mK9FCZkNaPw

[cilgwyn]

I tend to agree with every point made in your 'two 'appeth'!!!
That wierd boxy acoustic in the Lenard really is one of the main problems I have with the performance. Allot of those Marco Polo recordings seemed to suffer from it. But Lenard's recording certainly does have it's place in Brian history. No doubt of that,even if it won't make many,if any,return visits to my cd player!

[vandermolen]

Thanks for mentioning this new release! Bate's third and fourth symphonies have been revelations, as is hiw viola concerto on another Dutton cd. For me, he's the biggest discovery in years, even more so than e.g. Arnell.

(Completely OOT, I know. Back to Brian  )

For me too, along with Arnell and JBS.

[Dundonnell]

Very interesting and illuminating responses

Thanks for these

[thranx]

Swell to see Tournemire mentioned here.  Would love to hear one of his symphonies (esp. of course the 6th) live. 
Here's the original AC/DC video for the song WHO MADE WHO?  Orchestrate, starting with cellos & woodwinds for the bass, violins for Angus' guitar, horns for drums.  As it progresses, bring up trombones in counterpoint, aggitato strings for the lead guitar, move to....
Aw, heck...it's a nice piece of music. 
Great to see Arnell all over the place.

[thranx]

Whups...here's the Frankensteinian ac/dc video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cebvDMkk4c

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Here is a fragment from 'The Curse of The Gothic', featuring our own Philip, and Malcolm MacDonald, John Grimshaw, conductor John Curro in sparklingly sarcastic form, and others....


http://vimeo.com/28746424

[cilgwyn]

Oh,good! Have to say,the flow from the previous 'Frankensteinian' post  to a 'Curse' does seem peculiarly appropriate!
Is this going to be released on dvd,at all? Or is it just for network tv? My multi region dvd player could handle an australian dvd!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Well, cilgwyn, the film had its premiere at the Melbourne Film Festival recently, and I think there are plans to issue it on DVD. I sure hope I'll be able to watch it! Fortunately, several people on Facebook (among them MM himself) have been asking this same question, too. Philip should know more (I hope!)

[John Whitmore]

Here is a fragment from 'The Curse of The Gothic', featuring our own Philip, and Malcolm MacDonald, John Grimshaw, conductor John Curro in sparklingly sarcastic form, and others....


http://vimeo.com/28746424

Well there's a surprise. A choir unable to count or follow a conductor

[cilgwyn]

I think the 'legendary' 70s documentary 'The Unknown Warrior' would make a rather nice dvd release,one day. Unlikely,at the moment,I suppose,but allot of things have been released on dvd,in recent years,which I never thought would be treated to a commercial release. It also IS quite a celebrated documentary in it's own way. I'm sure some people would buy it & some companies do seem to be moving towards this kind of archive material. The man who wrote 'The Gothic',in person,too! Maybe add,one or two 'special features' & preferably digitally remastered.
Of course,it IS on Youtube,but just a thought.

But,maybe I'm just a dreamer!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Well there's a surprise. A choir unable to count or follow a conductor

I gather it was their first rehearsal with all the forces (Philip will know). The choir improved tremendously in the days that followed, judging by the final result.

[John Whitmore]

I gather it was their first rehearsal with all the forces (Philip will know). The choir improved tremendously in the days that followed, judging by the final result.

They certainly did improve and the final result was very good. I'm just being my sarcastic self As they say in the trade there are musicians and there are singers.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Haha! That reminds me of a saying by my piano and singing teacher, who had worked at Dutch Opera and knew the likes of Josef Krips - ' dumb, dumber, tenor'...

[hbswebmaster]

...and another one: what do you call someone who hangs around with a group of musicians? A percussionist. (speaking as an orchestral precussionist!)