Havergal Brian.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I am not bothered by the detratctors. As I said earlier in this thread, people are free not to like Brian's music. I know from personal experience that some works took me many times before I started to like them. But in the end, I understood what Brian did and how his style worked. If you can crack the Brian code, you're 'in'. But you have to persevere. Fortunately there are always passages, even in the harshest works, that speak immediately.

[hbswebmaster]

I couldn't agree more, Johan. It was only relatively recently that Das Siegeslied clicked for me.

[John Whitmore]

I am not bothered by the detratctors. As I said earlier in this thread, people are free not to like Brian's music. I know from personal experience that some works took me many times before I started to like them. But in the end, I understood what Brian did and how his style worked. If you can crack the Brian code, you're 'in'. But you have to persevere. Fortunately there are always passages, even in the harshest works, that speak immediately.

'Allo 'Allo, this is Nighthawk, over.

[cilgwyn]

Roger!

[hbswebmaster]

Good moaning!

[cilgwyn]

There WILL be moaning if there's another negative,or simply brainless,review!
Some good ones please. IRR,may come up with the goods,predictably,I suppose! And then there is 'the Hurwitz',who,if you can get past the bile & rants,actually seems to have quite a positive opinion of Brian,fair play! Albeit,the music,not his admirers!
The Yorshire post may like the recording,but the 'broadsheets',or what passes for them now,might be a problem.
Still,it doesn't really matter what they say,does it,we know it's good.

Critics,what can you do with them,eh? I got a s/h copy of the Groves/emi recording of VW's Hugh the Drover,today from a nice seller (I had the Lp's once* & have been trying to get the emi set for ages,but sellers ask such ridiculous prices). What a glorious,entertaining,lovely,tuneful opera. I listened to it twice through on headphones. Not a dull moment,but,oh no.......the critics don't like it! Poor old VW! Sir John in Love is another spellbinder,for those 'in the know'!

NB: Can't stand that horrible Hyperion recording,with that bloke with the annoying accent.The Groves recording is what good conducting,ensemble & singing is all about!

Sorry,if I appear to digress,again,but I'm just making a point about the way critics pan certain works or composers & that it's not just,so called,second or third rank composers that suffer.

* I had the good sense to keep the nice,big libretto that came with the Lp's!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Sorry,if I appear to digress,again,but I'm just making a point about the way critics pan certain works or composers & that it's not just,so called,second or third rank composers that suffer.

It's a point well made. Critics move in packs, they follow a dominant view. They fear ridicule and disrepect if they judge out of line.

[Karl Henning]

It's a point well made. Critics move in packs, they follow a dominant view. They fear ridicule and disrepect if they judge out of line.

There's truth in here, but also the inherent limitations of a generalization.  There are also contrarians (and possibly even contrarian packs).

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

There's truth in here, but also the inherent limitations of a generalization.  There are also contrarians (and possibly even contrarian packs).

I take your point, Karl. I found it very telling, though, that a writer and critic like Jessica Duchen, who wrote a marvellous book about Korngold (who has now come in from the cold), when it came to Brian wrote on auto-pilot. As if taking Brian seriously would damage her. Nothing wrong with not liking him and explaining why, but she decided not to listen and simply go with the accepted 'wisdom'. I think that to earn your money in the mainstream nowadays has an inhibiting effect. To stand alone as a critic (or even as an artist) is risky. I wish for the return of informed and independent value judgements. Those take time, a clear view, and erudition, which is perhaps too much to ask, but are still of the essence.

[Karl Henning]

I take your point, Karl. I found it very telling, though, that a writer and critic like Jessica Duchen, who wrote a marvellous book about Korngold (who has now come in from the cold), when it came to Brian wrote on auto-pilot. As if taking Brian seriously would damage her. Nothing wrong with not liking him and explaining why, but she decided not to listen and simply go with the accepted 'wisdom'. I think that to earn your money in the mainstream nowdays has an inhibiting effect. To stand alone as a critic (or even as an artist) is risky. I wish for the return of informed and independent value judgements. Those take time, a clear view, and erudition, which is perhaps too much to ask, but are still of the essence.

Entirely understand your righteous quarrel with Jessica Duchen here, Johan.

[Lethevich]

I wish for the return of informed and independent value judgements. Those take time, a clear view, and erudition, which is perhaps too much to ask, but are still of the essence.

Some of the interest I find in Brian's own journalism derives from him often not having the full picture - and so, Haydn-style, he was forced to develop original opinions. Half of the problem with this journalistic groupthink might be the result of having a little too much information to hand (although, another sizable issue is an evident unwillingness to even read this available information beyond the cover blurb).

[Albion]

Some of the interest I find in Brian's own journalism derives from him often not having the full picture - and so, Haydn-style, he was forced to develop original opinions. Half of the problem with this journalistic groupthink might be the result of having a little too much information to hand (although, another sizable issue is an evident unwillingness to even read this available information beyond the cover blurb).

At least Brian as a critic was musically literate and able to appreciate scores he was unable to experience in performance by using his oculars and thus form a judgement - with many of the 'music critics' operating today it would perhaps be stretching credibility beyond its limits to accord them the same level of ability.

[Brian]

It's going online tomorrow and therefore still a secret, but I suggest you lads keep your eye on the announcement of MusicWeb International's 2011 CD of the Year!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

 

[cilgwyn]

There WILL be moaning if there's another negative,or simply brainless,review!
Some good ones please. IRR,may come up with the goods,predictably,I suppose! And then there is 'the Hurwitz',who,if you can get past the bile & rants,actually seems to have quite a positive opinion of Brian,fair play! Albeit,the music,not his admirers!
The Yorshire post may like the recording,but the 'broadsheets',or what passes for them now,might be a problem.
Still,it doesn't really matter what they say,does it,we know it's good!

[kishnevi]

I take your point, Karl. I found it very telling, though, that a writer and critic like Jessica Duchen, who wrote a marvellous book about Korngold (who has now come in from the cold), when it came to Brian wrote on auto-pilot. As if taking Brian seriously would damage her. Nothing wrong with not liking him and explaining why, but she decided not to listen and simply go with the accepted 'wisdom'. I think that to earn your money in the mainstream nowadays has an inhibiting effect. To stand alone as a critic (or even as an artist) is risky. I wish for the return of informed and independent value judgements. Those take time, a clear view, and erudition, which is perhaps too much to ask, but are still of the essence.

Might there also be the fact that this recording came from an instantly sold out Proms concert work into this?  I mean,  if a music critic is going to lecture The General Public on music, then the music critic can't admit that sometimes The General Public can pick a good piece of music all on its own.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Might there also be the fact that this recording came from an instantly sold out Proms concert work into this?  I mean,  if a music critic is going to lecture The General Public on music, then the music critic can't admit that sometimes The General Public can pick a good piece of music all on its own.

Jessica Duchen wrote about the Proms performance, Jeffrey (or, more accurately, didn't listen to it and wrote about that), not about the recording. Perhaps she still will, the coming weeks, I don't know. Your surmise may be correct. People who like Brian's music are often portrayed as a lunatic fringe, so you don't want to be tainted, or become guilty by association.

[John Whitmore]

I'm posting this for a couple of days then removing it. It's Psalm 23 by Bostock.
http://www.4shared.com/folder/vs5346nS/Brian_23_Bostock.html

[cilgwyn]

"I'm the lunatic fringe?". Well.that explains everything.
Is there a doctor in the house?"

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I'm posting this for a couple of days then removing it. It's Psalm 23 by Bostock.
http://www.4shared.com/folder/vs5346nS/Brian_23_Bostock.html

I'm listening. It's a decent enough performance, but it's too 'nice'. The orchestra plays well, but lacks fire, as does the choir. Still - it's always a pleasure to hear a clear Brian recording! Thanks, John.