Havergal Brian.

[Brian]

These linking passages can have their own beauty, but sometimes they are rather mechanical. This happens in The Gothic, too, but to these ears only in the final movement, where after the opening tenor solo you have a few minutes of choral build-up with no real payoff. That's the only flaw I see in the whole of The Gothic. The rest is absolutely inspired.

I'll listen for that spot (with a bit of regret) next time I hear the symphony. I personally still have a hard time finding much nourishment in the fourth movement, after the first five minutes or so, and the la-la-la-la throws me for a complete loop even if it builds up to stupendous heights.

Might have to finally give a first listen to the Hyperion discs this afternoon!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Congratulations, cilgwyn! Good news! Following on from my last post - the transition between the first and second subject in that first movement of the Third Symphony is marvellous ("powerful" and "a typical Brian contrapuntal complex", as MM rightly calls it). And Stanley Pope does it full justice, whereas Lionel Friend on Hyperion accelerates, for one reason or another.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I'll listen for that spot (with a bit of regret) next time I hear the symphony. I personally still have a hard time finding much nourishment in the fourth movement, after the first five minutes or so, and the la-la-la-la throws me for a complete loop even if it builds up to stupendous heights.

Might have to finally give a first listen to the Hyperion discs this afternoon!

The la-la-la-la is among Brian's most controversial inspirations. It is hard to 'understand'. I don't even know if there is anything to understand there. I read one commentator who thinks it alludes to soldiers at the start of World War I, going to the battlefield, singing, knowing nothing of the horrors to come. I simply don't know.

[Luke]

I'll listen for that spot (with a bit of regret) next time I hear the symphony. I personally still have a hard time finding much nourishment in the fourth movement, after the first five minutes or so, and the la-la-la-la throws me for a complete loop even if it builds up to stupendous heights.

Might have to finally give a first listen to the Hyperion discs this afternoon!

As I did, once again, with much relish at hearing all those strands uncovered. I haven't given my thoughts on the Brabbins recording yet, only my initial awed response after going to the concert itself. But then I have hardly posted a thing here for weeks. FWIW, I think the CD is a dazzling success in many ways, but - can I even say it - at times I find myself regreting some of Brabbins' tempo choices in the first movement - the slower 9/8 sections are taken too fast, it seems to me, at the same speed as the surrounding Allegros. Brian marks them slower, in various ways, and I'm not sure why Brabbins rushes at them...no, I suppose he is trying to keep a continuous momentum, perhaps trying to efface the supposedly problematic overly bipartite characteristics of this movement. But as one who has been rather alone in being wholly convinced by this movement, and in fact one who feels that its falling-apart-at-the-seams nature is part of its success, its radicalism (it reminds me slightly of the first movement of Mahler 9 in some respects) - and as one who finds these utterly haunting 9/8 sections some of the most beautiful music in the piece, I find it a shame that they are rather whizzed through. But I would love to be convinced, because other than things like this, the CD seems to me a triumph.

Over the Christmas break I was reading the first volume of Anthony Burgess' autobiography. But I had to put it down for a while (in fact I've hardly been able to pick it up again) when I turned a page and was shocked to find his damning opinion of the Gothic and Brian in general. He didn't 'get it', perhaps not surprisingly - so many didn't and still don't - but it's not fun to see a writer one admires turn his withering scorn on a composer one loves! Anybody else read it? If not, I will try to grit my teeth and copy it out for the benefit of the thread 

And now switching even more into ramble mode.....

as this thread is such a valuable resource of things Brianic, has anyone else here read the fairly long and favourable entry on HB in Mark Morris' Dictionary of Twentieth Century Composers? Worth a read (and in the context of this discussion, for its lengthy discussion of the Gothic, which Morris absolutely raves about - it is a masterpiece, he thinks, 'the climax of the Romntic age...an experience quite unlike anything else in musc' which 'entirely justifies' its huge forces). It's not a totally comprehensive dictionary, and the editing leaves much to be desired (in the HB entry there is mention of his Double Fugue in E, for instance), but it's the best thing of this type I've seen. Morris arbitraily awards composer *** or ** or * or no stars at all (most of them). *** is Debussy, Stravinsky, Bartok,  Schoenbrg - the BIG names. ** is Enescu, Dallapiccola, Busoni, Adams, Barber, Delius, Bloch, Glass, Dukas, Holst, Miaskovsky, Kurtag, Villa-Lobos, Wlaton, Rubbra, Respighi, Scriabin etc. * is Bantock, Alwyn, Ustvolskaya, Corigliano..... Morris ranks Brian as a ** composer, which is pleasing.

Also OTTOMH is Wilfrid Mellers' passing judgement on Brian in his RVW book. Intrigued, guardedly favourable but not without criticism, essentially of Brian's melodic skills. He may have a point, or he may be missing one...

All of these copiable on request 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Many thanks, Luke, for gracing this thread with your presence again...  No, but seriously, it's always a pleasure to read your comments. I agree with you - the one weakness Brabbins still has as a 'budding Brian conductor' is, sometimes, a wrong choice of tempo. This (slightly) mars his readings of symphonies 10 and 30 on the Dutton CD, too. As I noted earlier, he is too much of a Toscanini, and I would dearly see him develop more 'inwardness'. Speed kills pathos and grandeur in Brian. Brian isn't your brisk allegro composer, mostly.


Please copy the Burgess quotation. Burgess was a symphonist himself and might have resented the fact of Brian's relative success... Very interested in the Mark Morris entry, too. The Mellers I know. But others perhaps won't...

[cilgwyn]

By dinasman at 2012-01-07

A bit closer,(esp if you click on the image)so people who haven't got this book can get a flavour of what they're missing. I seem to recall that MM'S description of the second movement of Das Siegesled was particularly alluring.
Can't see any 'foxing'! What I hate most is that strong musty stench you get,when books go yellowy. You need a World War ii,or i (mustard gas?) issue gas mask to read it! (I expect they have them on ebay!)

I like those la-la-la's in the Gothic. I can't understand why people have a problem with them.They're lovely & never cease to suprise me. Delius gets some stick for doing this in a 'Mass of Life',doesn't he? (You're the 'expert' on FD,Johan).
Morris's book sounds interesting,Brian;but I must say,I do find all this ranking of composers a bit of a pain,really.

[cilgwyn]

MM's books should have come with a cigarette style warning really,as his writing could turn you into a HB addict!

" with unvarying pace they spread through the whole orchestra,like the tramp and murmur of a great army"

It's like reading a really good novel!

[John Whitmore]

Two refurbished Brian LPs hot off the press. $5 per download. I've heard them. Absolutely brilliant.
http://www.klassichaus.us/index.php

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

MM's books should have come with a cigarette style warning really,as his writing could turn you into a HB addict!

" with unvarying pace they spread through the whole orchestra,like the tramp and murmur of a great army"

It's like reading a really good novel!

I was never warned as an impressionable 16-year old... The rest is history.

[cilgwyn]

Actually,that would have only made the addiction worse........thank goodness!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Two refurbished Brian LPs hot off the press. $5 per download. I've heard them. Absolutely brilliant.
http://www.klassichaus.us/index.php

I am, of course, interested!

[Sergeant Rock]

Two refurbished Brian LPs hot off the press. $5 per download. I've heard them. Absolutely brilliant.
http://www.klassichaus.us/index.php

I have the LP with 22 and Psalm 23 but I would like the CD for convenience and cleaner sound. I'll be ordering it. (Klassichaus is located in Oklahoma! I would not have expected that  )

Sarge

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I am downloading both CDs as I write. I used PayPal and got a warning about payloadz.com, which I ignored. Everything went smoothly. On with the music!

[John Whitmore]

I have the LP with 22 and Psalm 23 but I would like the CD for convenience and cleaner sound. I'll be ordering it. (Klassichaus is located in Oklahoma! I would not have expected that  )

Sage

Sarge, I hated the CBS sound. The new download has added ambience, a cleaner top end and a deeper sound stage. The lack of background sludge in No.22 brings out inner details missing from the pressing. It's a very good piece of restoration.

[Brian]

Wow, the sonic improvement Hyperion achieved is really unmistakeable all the way through. Only two gripes: the timpani are a bit fogged up at the great 'gear-shift' which closes the vivace, and the extraordinary silence which filled the Albert Hall after the final chords has been cut from 30 seconds to only 10.

My MusicWeb review is finished... at 3,550 words 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Just compared the opening of No. 10 - the Unicorn Kanchana CD sounds tinny and hoarse, the new restoration dark and warm, like I remember from the LP. Good work!

[Sergeant Rock]

I am downloading both CDs as I write. I used PayPal and got a warning about payloadz.com, which I ignored. Everything went smoothly.

I ordered the actual CD. No problems encountered. Now for a two to three week wait.

Sarge

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Wow, the sonic improvement Hyperion achieved is really unmistakeable all the way through. Only two gripes: the timpani are a bit fogged up at the great 'gear-shift' which closes the vivace, and the extraordinary silence which filled the Albert Hall after the final chords has been cut from 30 seconds to only 10.

My MusicWeb review is finished... at 3,550 words 

Can't wait to read your undoubtedly sober but positive assessment... Two gripes in 2 hours is acceptable, I think. 

[Sergeant Rock]

Sarge, I hated the CBS sound. The new download has added ambience, a cleaner top end and a deeper sound stage. The lack of background sludge in No.22 brings out inner details missing from the pressing. It's a very good piece of restoration.

Sounds super. Can't wait. If only the mail were as fast as a download 

Just compared the opening of No. 10 - the Unicorn Kanchana CD sounds tinny and hoarse, the new restoration dark and warm, like I remember form the LP. Good work!

You couldn't have kept that to yourself? Damn it, Johan...you're gonna cost me money.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

My MusicWeb review is finished... at 3,550 words 

Who do you think you are, Brian...the Havergal Brian of critics?...this review your Gothic? You need an editor, boy 

Sarge