Havergal Brian.

[Dundonnell]

If my Dutch was one-millionth as good as your English........

[calyptorhynchus]

To return to the Hull SO orchestra recordings, I didn't mind the rough but enthusiastic playing, it was the recording that was the problem, far too close, it sounded as though the whole orchestra was playing in a small lift.

Anyway, can't wait for the ES 1 on the new Naxos, the entry of the Fat Lady is one the funniest moments in music.

And with the ES 1 on this disk we officially reach the end of the orchestral "fillers'. So unless record labels are going to repeat fillers endlessly, or try bits of the operas and choral works, they should start including extra symphonies!

[Dundonnell]

"And with the ES 1 on this disk we officially reach the end of the orchestral "fillers'. So unless record labels are going to repeat fillers endlessly, or try bits of the operas and choral works, they should start including extra symphonies!"

Hear, Hear

[John Whitmore]

I won't! Unfortunately,I can't friggin' find it! Have another look today!

The  Havergal Brian curse?!!

Try the sock drawer. Just found my copy but probably won't put it on.

[cilgwyn]

You're detailed response,Dundonell,to my points about the direction of Chandos,are as helpful as usual! Short of being in a pub with Ralph Couzens (does he drink?! ) and hoping he'll spill the beans after a few pints,this really answers my posts as well as any mere mortal can!
I occasionally post on the Chandos forum & while interest has been expressed in Bate,Holbrooke & even obscure & possibly deserving figures (?) like Learmont Drysdale (!) nothing much seems to happen....at least so far!
The loss of Richard Hickox does seem to have been a bit of a disaster for us British music lovers!
Conducting,like comedy,seems to be a career choice to avoid,if you value your health. Yet,years ago you seemed to have figures like Boult,Stokowski & Beecham (cigar included!) who seemed to go on conducting for year after year! Bryden Thomson,is another conductor,like Hickox,who seems to have had an enthusiasm for the byways of British music. Although,I don't know if it was stress that contributed to his premature death??! Either way,one can only speculate about what a conductor of his ability could have done. He had a particular passion for Daniel Jones,didn't he? If he'd lived I wonder if he could have persuaded Chandos of the worthiness of a Daniel Jones symphony cycle?! We could have been playing the cds now!!!
But maybe not! From what little I know of the recording industry,very few conductors can record exactly what THEY want to do! They obviously have to find a record label that is,say,interested in Daniel Jones or Havergal Brian,too!
Which makes me think! If Herbert von Karajan had been an August Bungert admirer,would he have cds of his 'Homerische Welt' operatic tetrology?! If Bernstein had a rare passion for Roy Harris,would we have a Bernstein Harris cycle?
  How much influence do even the most famous & wealthiest of conductors actually have?

Regarding the Cameo Classics Hull Youth SO cds. Still can't find them,although I DO remember 'handling' them. It's all very mysterious.
Of course,as soon as I stop looking for them I'll probably find them!!!

[cilgwyn]

Still looking!

Nope! Not even inside the sock!!!

[John Whitmore]

Ah yes,the Hull Youth SO recordings. To be fair,just imagine being a teenager back in the late 70s,thirsty for more Brian....and it wasn't as easy to come by then. The Hull Youth SO Lps were a lone 'window' on another aspect of Brians long 'career'. I spent allot of time trying my best to glean out what I could from them. As luck would have it,I chose the Lp with 'In Memoriam',which as John pointed out,is a fairly straight forward march which they manage to cope with reasonably well. Also,'Festal Dance',which includes the 'piano part' missing from the,imo,rather humourless Marco Polo recording & at least their wacky,eccentric approach has some fun in it! On the other hand,their account of 'For Valour' is pretty hair raising,in the wrong kind of way!!
Also,the Hull Youth SO recordings gave my adolescent mind some pretty wierd ideas about HB's early attempts at orchestration,particularly the string section! The worst bits are rather like the old trick of dragging your fingernails across a school blackboard. Ouch!!! If only it had been the LSSO!!!  Still,they were youngsters,so kudo's to them for trying!

I DO actually like their performance of 'In Memoriam! The strings are a bit scrapy in places & there are some decidedly knife edge moments;but there's a grandeur & imposing solemnity which I find missing from the MP performance.

Those poor children in Leicestershire suffered enough for the cause. It was time for somebody else to chip in with few recordings. Are you totally heartless?

[calyptorhynchus]

Re: Chandos

It isn't just British music that gets unaccountably neglected, I can't understand why, for example, there aren't several competing David Diamond symphony cycles available.

[cilgwyn]

Quite! I know he has a lot of admirers here & at the AMF. I also find it strange that Pistons Fifth,Seventh & Eighth symphonies only seem to be available in those ancient old Louisville performances. They're quite good,but it still seems a tad ridiculous. I find all three symphonies a very satisfying & absorbing listen,but it would be nice to hear some newer performances.
As Dundonnell has pointed out before,in terms of 'home grown' recordings,American composers are even worse off than ours. 

[Dundonnell]

You're detailed response,Dundonell,to my points about the direction of Chandos,are as helpful as usual! Short of being in a pub with Ralph Couzens (does he drink?! ) and hoping he'll spill the beans after a few pints,this really answers my posts as well as any mere mortal can!
I occasionally post on the Chandos forum & while interest has been expressed in Bate,Holbrooke & even obscure & possibly deserving figures (?) like Learmont Drysdale (!) nothing much seems to happen....at least so far!
The loss of Richard Hickox does seem to have been a bit of a disaster for us British music lovers!
Conducting,like comedy,seems to be a career choice to avoid,if you value your health. Yet,years ago you seemed to have figures like Boult,Stokowski & Beecham (cigar included!) who seemed to go on conducting for year after year! Bryden Thomson,is another conductor,like Hickox,who seems to have had an enthusiasm for the byways of British music. Although,I don't know if it was stress that contributed to his premature death??! Either way,one can only speculate about what a conductor of his ability could have done. He had a particular passion for Daniel Jones,didn't he? If he'd lived I wonder if he could have persuaded Chandos of the worthiness of a Daniel Jones symphony cycle?! We could have been playing the cds now!!!
But maybe not! From what little I know of the recording industry,very few conductors can record exactly what THEY want to do! They obviously have to find a record label that is,say,interested in Daniel Jones or Havergal Brian,too!
Which makes me think! If Herbert von Karajan had been an August Bungert admirer,would he have cds of his 'Homerische Welt' operatic tetrology?! If Bernstein had a rare passion for Roy Harris,would we have a Bernstein Harris cycle?
  How much influence do even the most famous & wealthiest of conductors actually have?

Regarding the Cameo Classics Hull Youth SO cds. Still can't find them,although I DO remember 'handling' them. It's all very mysterious.
Of course,as soon as I stop looking for them I'll probably find them!!!

Actually it was cancer that killed Bryden Thomson

But you are right to highlight his name He was an exceptionally gifted conductor Just think what he recorded for Chandos-Vaughan Williams, Bax, Walton, Nielsen, Martinu cycles which stand the test of time. I am sure that he would have been delighted to have recorded all the Daniel Jones symphonies....but it does need a record company to take up the offer.

In Germany cpo has an agreement with the state radio organizations which enables them to use the radio orchestras. Why on earth this could not be replicated in Britain I really don't know The BBC has-presumably still -the recordings of the Jones/Thomson series. Why not remaster the tapes and issue the recordings Better than nothing.

[John Whitmore]

Re: Chandos

It isn't just British music that gets unaccountably neglected, I can't understand why, for example, there aren't several competing David Diamond symphony cycles available.

Limited market, I'm afraid. I wonder what the sales are like for the Diamond CDs currently avaiable? Not very good I bet. I have most of them and some are decent enough. Not totally conviced about the potential appetite for any more recordings though. Record companies live off margins not goodwill. It's a shame but that's the way it is. HOWEVER - as a licence fee payer I think that the BBC could offer their master tapes at absolute minimal costs to the recording companies in order to get their archive out there as a budget series. Not much cost in terms of remastering. The tapes are gathering dust and I'm one of the people that have already paid for them to be recorded. The Schmidt Gothic for example. Charge Chandos 200 quid for the tape, ask for a 10% royalty on sales for the BBC coffers and get it on sale for £10 a set. What's the big deal? Am I missing something? 

[Dundonnell]

I hope to have an answer to your last point later this evening

[John Whitmore]

I hope to have an answer to your last point later this evening

Are you just being a tease?

[Dundonnell]

No I knew that I would having a telephone conversation with someone who used to work for the BBC as a producer and, later, Head of Music and that I could ask him the question.

The answer was rather less than satisfactory

What it boiled down to was-
(1) The BBC tried some years ago to issue British music recordings from its archives on its own label. The discs didn't sell.
(2) It would require a record company to approach the BBC with a request/proposal to release the tapes of whatever-say the Daniel Jones symphonies. In the present climate that is unlikely.
(3) If such an approach was made someone at the BBC would need to make a decision.....oh dear, now you ARE asking
(4) Even if the idea was approved in principle someone would have to do some work, for example in checking out legal and copyright issues. Oh Heavens

How on earth Roger Wright manages to run the Proms and how he managed to persuade THEM (whoever THEY may be) to stage the Gothic goodness alone knows

I fear that the BBC is a vast bureaucratic lumbering machine where the glaringly obvious becomes improbable, unlikely, impossible............... To cut through the tangle and get something done requires commitment, energy, commitment, tenacity..........

[John Whitmore]

No I knew that I would having a telephone conversation with someone who used to work for the BBC as a producer and, later, Head of Music and that I could ask him the question.

The answer was rather less than satisfactory

What it boiled down to was-
(1) The BBC tried some years ago to issue British music recordings from its archives on its own label. The discs didn't sell.
(2) It would require a record company to approach the BBC with a request/proposal to release the tapes of whatever-say the Daniel Jones symphonies. In the present climate that is unlikely.
(3) If such an approach was made someone at the BBC would need to make a decision.....oh dear, now you ARE asking
(4) Even if the idea was approved in principle someone would have to do some work, for example in checking out legal and copyright issues. Oh Heavens

How on earth Roger Wright manages to run the Proms and how he managed to persuade THEM (whoever THEY may be) to stage the Gothic goodness alone knows

I fear that the BBC is a vast bureaucratic lumbering machine where the glaringly obvious becomes improbable, unlikely, impossible............... To cut through the tangle and get something done requires commitment, energy, commitment, tenacity..........

Not surprised. I bought a few of those BBC CDs including the Campoli/Bliss fiddle concerto. They were fit for purpose and good value. Why are the BBC sound archive mob so cautious? Why not just offer free streams at least? I suppose it's too much like hard work and the listening figures wouldn't be huge. Never mind.

[cilgwyn]

Indeed! A pity that venture conked out! My BBC Radio Classics cds of Boughton's Second & third symphonies & Downes Bantock Pagan Symphony,get played quite allot! If only the BBC Legends & Testament label were anywhere as adventurous! So far,the only cd I own from their respective catalogues is........(suprise! ) the Boult Gothic!
And yes,a cd release of the Schmidt Gothic (the first performance I ever heard) would be marvellous!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I have a CD of Scriabin's Third Symphony, with the BBC Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Sir John Pritchard, on the Artium label, which I bought in the BBC shop in Langham Place, London. That was in 1986. And the CD itself is from 1984. So 'Auntie' did, once upon a time, issue 'her' own recordings, as was already said earlier in this thread.

[cilgwyn]

 Apologies! This is what comes of posting late at night! Is this the label that released the Delius 'The Magic Fountain'? I don't want to look it up in case I find a copy going cheap (trying to save!). (And I've got the excellent Scottish Opera production on cassette,anyway!). Were they all released on cd? I must admit I didn't own a cd player until the early 90s!

Incidentally,I just ordered the new Brian cd from the Dutton website a couple of minutes ago!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Yes. Just checked - it's the Artium label. And sorry, here is a link..:


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DELIUS-MAGIC-FOUNTAIN-BBC-ARTIUM-2-x-LP-BOXED-SET-INSERT-N-M-/380405646005


And now we have to wait for the new Brian CD!

[Dundonnell]

Far too much Havergal Brian on cd anyway

As someone else has already pointed  out he has much better representation on disc than most other British composers