Havergal Brian.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Thanks for the exhaustive list, Colin!


Steve, you lucky so-and-so!!!

[North Star]

Daniel Jones is taking over this board. Seriously - does anyone own a decent pressing of the Pye LP of the 6th symphony? Could be worth restoring.
Oops - updated later - Lyrita have already issued it. Sorry!!
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2004/Mar04/Jones_symphonies.htm

Just sayin'

[mszczuj]

who says Brian can't orchestrate?

Is there really anybody who says so?

I'm new to Brian, I have listened sufficiently only to the 1st part of Gothic, than to fragments of Fantastic Symphony but is obvious for me that he was absolute master of orchestra who  could use all the possibilities of straussian orchestral language and add to it new more modern values  in the perfectly coherent way. Can't orchestrate? Who can then?

[cilgwyn]

Is there really anybody who says so?

I'm new to Brian, I have listened sufficiently only to the 1st part of Gothic, than to fragments of Fantastic Symphony but is obvious for me that he was absolute master of orchestra who  could use all the possibilities of straussian orchestral language and add to it new more modern values  in the perfectly coherent way. Can't orchestrate? Who can then?

John has some very interesting views on his orchestration & has the insider viewpoint,having played on the world famous LSSO recording! Maybe he will answer your points!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

In the absence of the Master of Delph... The main criticisms of Brian as an orchestrator are levelled at his string-writing ('awkward' and 'unidiomatic') and at the orchestral balance - the conductor has to grade the dynamics for every orchestral group very carefully to make all the lines clear and audible, as Brian's instrumentation is rather bass-heavy and favours the brass over the strings.


Any additions, John?

[cilgwyn]

Apologies,Johan. It's just that John was in that recording & he DID have quite a few things to say about Brian's abilities in this area a few pages back! Some of them not terribly complimentary,but very interesting indeed for the laymen here. But that certainly is the gist of it!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

A 'few' pages back, indeed! But yes, John is very precise in his criticism and we had a nice discussion about it here (if we only could find it again...) He'll be back. Like the Terminator.

[John Whitmore]

Pye also issed the John McCabe Symphony No.1 on LP. That WOULD be worth restoring

Regarding the Klassic Haus transfers of HB (and I apologise if this has been covered before ), the Aries LPs appear to have contained:


Symphony 1 The Gothic (1919-27)
unattributed, except 'conductor Sir Adrian Boult'
copy of the 1966 Boult performance
Aries LP 2601 (2LP)

Symphony 2 (1930-31)
attributed to 'Dresden Symphony Orchestra, conductor Ernest Weir'
copy of BBC Symphony Orchestra, conductor Sir Charles Mackerras, 1979
Aries LP 1631 (LP)

Symphony 3 (1931-32)
attributed to 'Lisbon Conservatory Orchestra, conductor Peter Michaels'
copy of Ronald Stevenson, David Wilde (pianos), BBC Symphony Orchestra, conductor Stanley Pope, 1974
Aries LP 1617 (LP)

Symphony 4 Das Siegeslied (1932-33)
attributed to 'Valerie MacLennan (sop), Edinburgh Youth Symphony Orchestra and Chorus, conductor Sir Allistair MacKenzie'
copy of Felicity Palmer (sop), BBC Singers, BBC Choral Society, Goldsmith's Choral Union, London Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor John Poole, 1974 Alexandra Palace
Aries LP 1621 (LP)

Symphony 5 Wine of summer (1937) . Symphony 25 (1966)
attributed to 'John Hoffman (baritone), San Paulo Symphony Orchestra, conductor Francisco Teatro' copies of Brian Rayner Cook, New Philharmonia Orchestra, conductor Stanley Pope, 1976 Alexandra Palace (Symphony 5) and BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra, conductor John Canarina, 1976 (Symphony 25)
Aries LP 1629 (LP)

Symphony 8 (1949) . Symphony 14 (1959-60)
attributed to 'Wales Symphony Orchestra, conductor Colin Wilson'
copies of Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Myer Fredman, 1971 (Symphony nd London Symphony Orchestra, conductor Edward Downes, 1969 (Symphony 14)
Aries LP 1603 (LP)

Symphony 9 (1951) . Symphony 12 (1957) . Symphony 23 (1965)
attributed to 'Wales Symphony Orchestra, conductor Colin Wilson'
copies of Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Myer Fredman, 1971 (Symphony 9) BBC Symphony Orchestra, conductor Norman del Mar, 1966 Proms (Symphony 12) and University of Illinois Symphony Orchestra, conductor Bernard Goodman, 1973 (Symphony 23)
Aries LP 1604 (LP)

Symphony 13 (1959) . Symphony 15 (1960)
attributed to 'Lisbon Conservatory Orchestra, conductor Peter Michaels'
presumably copies of Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Stanley Pope
Symphony 17 (1960-61) . Symphony 24 (1965)
attributed to 'Hamburg Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Horst Werner'
presumably copies of Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Stanley Pope (Symphony 17) and London Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Myer Fredman (Symphony 24)
Symphony 20 (1962) . Symphony 26 (1966)
attributed to 'Edinburgh Youth Symphony, conducted by John Freedman'
presumably copies of New Philharmonia Orchestra, conductor Vernon Handley
Aries LP 3601 (3LP)

Symphony 18 (1961) . Symphony 19 (1961) . Symphony 22 (1964-65)
attributed to 'Wales Symphony Orchestra, conductor Colin Wilson'
copies of New Philharmonia Orchestra, conductor Bryan Fairfax, 1974 (Symphony 18) BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra, conductor John Canarina, 1976 (Symphony 19) and Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Myer Fredman, 1971 (Symphony 22)
Aries LP 1611 (LP)

Symphony 28 (1967) . Violin concerto (1935)
attributed to 'Emil Leibowitz (violin), Hamburg Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Horst Werner' copies of Ralph Holmes, New Philharmonia Orchestra, conductor Stanley Pope, 1969 (concerto)
and New Philharmonia Orchestra, conductor Leopold Stokowski, 1973 (Symphony 28)
Aries LP 1607 (LP)

If this is correct then there are still several symphonies which could, in theory, be remastered, including Nos. 2, 5, 19 and 26 which would at least plug some current gaps

Thanks for this. Before seeking these LPs out can you take a look again at the list and tell me which ones have already been posted by MVS from the broadcast tapes - his copies are generally superb. No point in transferring from vinyl what is already out there in potentially better sound. Can you help?

[Hattoff]

I'm hearing new things in all four works on the new disc. The symphony comes over very well, it's clearly a good work with excellent ideas. It's great to hear the English Suite recorded professionally, although it turns out that the amateur performance wasn't so far off; there's some very colourful orchestration now more clearly apparent.
I'm now listening to the violin concerto for the third time, it is a work I know well and have even heard live; there's something not quite right and I've been trying to think what it could be. .....It's the recording, it's slightly recessed and the violin is recessed even more. The perfomance of soloist, orchestra and conductor are impeccable. I'll be interested to hear other opinions.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Interesting observations, Steve. I'll be able to hear the CD for myself only next week. When did you hear the VC live? Was it at St James's Church, Piccadilly, like me, with Marat Bisengaliev

[John Whitmore]

A 'few' pages back, indeed! But yes, John is very precise in his criticism and we had a nice discussion about it here (if we only could find it again...) He'll be back. Like the Terminator.

Good moaning. I was just p*ssing by. Maybe the pdf file I made for Klassic Haus would be of interest. You can get it from the link below. This highlights the general shambles you encounter with a Brian score - or at least the general shambles as it stood in 1972. This is, of course, a separate point to his orchestration skills but you may like to read it. I don't think it's fair to say that Brian couldn't orchestrate. That's not my opinion. It's just that it's not something he was especially good at and it certainly wasn't a strength. I don't know enough about Brian's background but much of his music sounds like somebody "having a go" rather than somebody who has been trained in the art of orchestration. Again, please don't bite my head off but that's how it sounds. The string writing is certainly clumsy but if you recall the pre-Proms Gothic discussion, musicians who took part referred to his clumsiness/awkwardness - and that wasn't just string players. Simpson also thought he was rough and clumsy - now he COULD orchestrate!! In terms of balance (Johan's point) I think that's the conductor's job and isn't a major issue with Brian. Delius looks peculiar on the printed page but Beecham put huge amounts of effort in and brought it to life. I happen to believe that Delius was a great orchestrator and will never forget the thrill of playing Brigg Fair all those years ago. Everything is under the fingers, Delius knew exactly what he was doing and the beauty of the sound world is undeniable. Putting to one side for a moment the actual musical merits of Malcolm Arnold (I quite like him) there is simply no doubt that he was a master of the orchestra. He was an orchestral player and knew from years  of experience how to get an orchestra to "sound". Ditto Strauss, Debussy, Rimsky. There are too many passages in Brian that suggest that he didn't have an intimate knowledge of the individual instruments of the orchestra. This is a handicap but not the end of the world. Of course, some people will claim that he was stretching the orchestra. No he wasn't. His music is tonal and not especially difficult to play. It can be annoying to play . If it's that difficult how can you explain that a group of kids aged 14 to 18 who weren't specialist music students in a small English county had a very respectable stab at performing it? Doesn't really add up does it? It's just clumsily written - passages where you have to cross the strings etc in a way that you wouldn't have to had the composer really understood what the issues were. Brian's not the only guilty one - there's a violin passage in the middle of the 1st movement of Rachmaninov's Symphonic Dances that is virtually unplayable and you have to cheat your way through it. On the piano (in it's original guise) it's a piece of cake. On the fiddle it's a nightmare. One of Rach's rare mistakes. There's more to life than orchestral mastery. I love Tippett but he's no natural. Some of it is horrible to play. I don't particulary like Britten but he was a master of his trade. Mendelssohn was a master but I don't like much of his work. Here's the crux - if Brian had been in the Strauss class with his use of the orchestra it may well be that many of his rough and ready, unpolished charms would have been removed and his music would have been less appealing. Simpson said he was "as rough as a bear's a**e" but it may be the roughness that gives it some of the appeal. Was Brian a master of the orchestra? Give me strength. Does it really matter? I won't lose any sleep over it but let's not make huge claims about the bloke's ability. Just enjoy it for what it is. I enjoy some of it - far more than I used to - but I still have to listen through the orchestra on occasion wishing that some passages had been re-scored. So there. Am I welcome back or should I scarper to the Khachaturian board? Don't even get me started on HIM......

http://www.klassichaus.us/Brian%3A-Symphony-No--10-No--21---LSSO.php

[John Whitmore]

Sing on, by all means, Colin.
The Daniel Jones symphonies I have heard so far are impressive. Arnell is very string, too. And Orr's First Symphony I wouldn't have missed for the world, wonderful piece (thanks to John Whitmore). Symphonists like Frankel and Wellesz interest me too, and I want to make more time for them. So - I do what I can to listen to composers really deserving of my time. Dyson's only symphony is a perennial favourite, too - the final bars are unforgettable. And I could go on...

Parry's Symphonic Variations. Wallop.

[Hattoff]

John, very nicely explained, I have no quibbles with anything you say there.

Johan, Yes, I was at Piccadilly, but I'm now sure, then, that I must have heard the concerto twice because I heard it at St Johns, Smith Square as well, back a long, long time ago.

Our paths must have crossed several times.

[John Whitmore]

John, very nicely explained, I have no quibbles with anything you say there.

Johan, Yes, I was at Piccadilly, but I'm now sure, then, that I must have heard the concerto twice because I heard it at St Johns, Smith Square as well, back a long, long time ago.

Our paths must have crossed several times.

I'll hang around a bit longer then. Reading the comments on the new VC recording I hope the violin image isn't set back as much as the otherwise world beating BIS Sibelius.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Question for Steve: can you let us hear a snippet of the VC, using Audacity?...

[Hattoff]

Jingle from the English Suite reminds me of Harry Potter. Could John Williams be a Brianite?

[Hattoff]

Link to the opening. The violin almost disappears into the background. Or is it me?
http://www.mediafire.com/?ddxcxghx2brc4xs

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I have no difficulty in extricating the violin solo from its intricate surroundings. It sounds very good to these ears (listened with headphones).


P.S. But yes - the violin is more part of the orchestral ensemble than in the other recordings.


Oh, and thanks, Steve!

[John Whitmore]

Link to the opening. The violin almost disappears into the background. Or is it me?
http://www.mediafire.com/?ddxcxghx2brc4xs

It's spot on. A lifelike image, not an elephant sized violin. She's very good but that's no surprise at all.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Do you mean Steve is spot-on, or that the sound is just 'realistic', John?