Havergal Brian.

[cilgwyn]

Thunderbirds indeed!

Meanwhile back at the ranch the Brian fever continues. This is one busy cd changer! I've been making more cdrs for it. The process of burning drives me crazy (bring back c90s!) but the music is worth it & it's great to hear them all being put on for me in sequence! No 3 at the moment,6 & 7 next. Yes,I did chicken out at the prospect of Das Siegeslied!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I thank John for his Bliss recommendation.


I'm listening to the Bax Second - the similarities of the opening movement with the one in Brian's own Second are quite remarkable. Difference - in Brian everything is more extreme, the dimensions feel 'larger'. Bax is more polished, and perhaps his movement is more accomplished. But there is a rawness to the Brian which makes it more 'dangerous'.
Update: I have know Bax 2 for a very long time, but its kinship with Brian 2 is really rather remarkable. Both are 'catastrophic' works, with climaxes to match.

[cilgwyn]

A very interesting comparison,Johan! Certainly much better than Mahler 7;although I stand by the nocturnal comparison. The night can be both desolate and beautiful,a time to brood! It's certainly not a daytime symphony! I should know,I used to listen to it allot in my head while walking at night!! That said,you have the same ominous atmosphere,feelings of foreboding,impending catastrophe you get in Bax 2. Brian is more interested in the landscapes of the mind however than the ones around him! Curiously,I am also reminded of late romantic symphonies like Tchaikovsky's Manfred. Not that they have anything in common in terms of the way they sound! But they do share the sense of foreboding,catastrophe and loneliness.
It seems that Brian's Second is growing on you. Not that you didn't like it before,but I got the feeling you weren't as convinced by it as some of the others. Hearing it in sequence and listening to the earlier Leslie Head performances as well certainly has enhanced my appreciation of this symphony. There do seem some sequences where Brian seems to be struggling to weld the whole structure together. Unsurprisingly,at these points his well of inspiration seems to run a little drier than usual;albeit not for long!! However,like the bits in the first and second movements of the 'Gothic' that often strike me as a little overblown or 'purple',I am beginning to feel that this is one of the things I like about his music. The feeling of going out on a journey,of learning from your mistakes and growing mastery. In fact,I am starting to think that Brian's compositional flaws are actually one of his strengths. Maybe it is possible to be too perfect a composer?! To sum up,I suppose you could say I like his warts .............but then again,I'm

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I think Brian's Second gets better and better as it progresses.  Your journey metaphor and 'warts and all' acceptance I can agree with. I think the main theme of the first movement, after all that buildup, is rather weak.  I have noticed that in more symphonies: 7, 9 and 29 have the same fault: great introduction but a rather unmemorable first theme. Back to no. 2: the final movement is the best, overall, but that too insistent Götterdämmerung motif hampers its progress a bit. Still - I like this symphony a lot. What, after all, can you write after The Gothic?!

[cilgwyn]

Done! My connection disappeared when I was previewing the post!

Anyway,back to No2 ......Brian does include a wonderfully romantic theme which sweeps in and out of the symphony here and there which I do find very memorable. That said,after that genuinely gripping opening and some wonderful writing for brass,a tender and very lovely lyrical passage that follows,he seems to lose focus. Fortunately,while I'm struggling to maintain my own interest and understand how this sequence of note spinning could follow on from such a truly absorbing and inspired opening Brian's focus seems to improve,almost as if he's wrestled the thing back into control like some huge slippery serpent. Things improve from that point,thankfully,and my overriding impression is that there is allot more wheat than chaff! (Hope I got that the right way around! ) I find this an absorbing and fascinating symphony. In a way it's faults are almost it's good points. Having said that,Brian is obviously struggling in places. Luckily for him and us (well,you Johan,anyway) there are allot of tremendous ideas which keep you listening through the duff bits and the desolate,oppressive,catastrophic atmosphere of this music seems genuinely unique in his output. The scherzo,on the other hand,strikes me as one of the most powerful and original movements he wrote. I also feel that if you like composers like Berlioz and the later Tchaikovsky symphonies this has the same sort of appeal;although Brian's conception is obviously less colourful and more abstract.
To sum up,for the time being at least ,I like this symphony. In fact,it's partly the problematic nature of the piece which keeps drawing me back! Also,with all it's longeurs and flaws,allot of the inspiration here seems genuinely heartfelt. In fact,to use hippy terminology,I feel it's quite a deep symphony. There is allot going on beneath the surface,allot to find. It's just a pity Brian isn't really in control most of the time and maybe it is some kind of 'workout' before something that really does capture his creative faculties comes along.......like No 3,for instance,where everything seems to pop into place. You even get a piano concerto thrown in with that one,but everything works and Brian's wildly vivid imagination is finally at full pelt!

Just noticed I cocked up on that re-post above!!! I used print screen luckily,as I lost my connection,so I may fix it later?!! Or not?!!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

There is a passage in the slow movement, that  'dialogue' among the higher and lower brass, with those dinosaur-like tubas, which has always struck me as quintessential Brian... So - I wouldn't miss the Second for the world, though I have my criticisms (as have you, cilgwyn)!

[cilgwyn]

It's actually probably I good thing I lost some of that post I re-pasted! Ernest Hemingway I'm not!!!
No 7 is another flawed work. In fact,in that respect No's 2 & 7 have quite allot in common! The Seventh is quite different in atmosphere,however. Interesting,that they both have the same inspiration in the writings of Goethe.
I've got No's 2,3,6-10 on the cd changer,incidentally. On repeat,it's back on No 2 now. One more listen through then I'll take it up to No 17! They get more gritty then,don't they? For a while,anyway! I can't wait!!!

[cilgwyn]

I'll have to wait,though. I'm still on No3!

Incidentally,I must sound like I'm obsessed with the Second symphony,with all these posts!

[vandermolen]

Listened to the Lenard 'Gothic' yesterday and had forgotten how great it is (both the Symphony and the performance). I have come to appreciate the choral sections much more. Today I listened to the Dutton Symphony 10 - a magnificent work ( although other than The Gothic I think that No 8 is my favourite). Oddly enough I find that old Leicestershire SSO version of No 10 more moving but maybe that is for nostalgic reasons. Anyway, I thought that I would tune in here for some sophisticated analysis - and what do I get - 'The Muppets' and 'Thunderbirds'. Johan H would be appalled  . What next 'Stingray', 'Captain Scarlet'?
Actually Tintin was always my favourite....

[John Whitmore]

Listened to the Lenard 'Gothic' yesterday and had forgotten how great it is (both the Symphony and the performance). I have come to appreciate the choral sections much more. Today I listened to the Dutton Symphony 10 - a magnificent work ( although other than The Gothic I think that No 8 is my favourite). Oddly enough I find that old Leicestershire SSO version of No 10 more moving but maybe that is for nostalgic reasons. Anyway, I thought that I would tune in here for some sophisticated analysis - and what do I get - 'The Muppets' and 'Thunderbirds'. Johan H would be appalled  . What next 'Stingray', 'Captain Scarlet'?
Actually Tintin was always my favourite....

Wind players in some top British professional orchestras - I mean the London ones - play Pop goes the Weasel during the last movement of Tchaik 5 when they don't think much of the conductor. It's even in some commercial recordings.

[vandermolen]

Wind players in some top British professional orchestras - I mean the London ones - play Pop goes the Weasel during the last movement of Tchaik 5 when they don't think much of the conductor. It's even in some commercial recordings.

[cilgwyn]

Listened to the Lenard 'Gothic' yesterday and had forgotten how great it is (both the Symphony and the performance). I have come to appreciate the choral sections much more. Today I listened to the Dutton Symphony 10 - a magnificent work ( although other than The Gothic I think that No 8 is my favourite). Oddly enough I find that old Leicestershire SSO version of No 10 more moving but maybe that is for nostalgic reasons. Anyway, I thought that I would tune in here for some sophisticated analysis - and what do I get - 'The Muppets' and 'Thunderbirds'. Johan H would be appalled  . What next 'Stingray', 'Captain Scarlet'?
Actually Tintin was always my favourite....

Don't forget Bill and Ben the flower pot men!

[cilgwyn]

Vandermolen may have had a point!
I'm going to load the later symphonies into the cd changer now. I think I will take my 'journey' up to No17 (or 18?). I will listen out for that 'Muppet' theme in No16!! I have had No's 2,3,6-10 on for the last few days. Is Havergal Brian a little overrated?! All I can say is that I find them very satisfying to listen to,absorbing,stimulating,enigmatic,endlessly fascinating and like the best composers I've heard I never get bored! Dvorak and Beethoven are two other examples. I have previously referred to the problematic nature of some of Brian's early symphonies and the feeling of a composer learning as he goes along. I like the way you get that with the Dvorak symphonies. The early ones with their Wagnerian influences,with all their flaws,there are longeurs,but the compensation is Dvorak's rich imagination. What not to like about No 2 for example? Like Brian Dvorak's music has a bit of everything;atmosphere,tunes (Brian IS tuneful!),mystery,excitement,colour and humour! Of course they don't sound anything like each other;but when people refer to Dvorak's early symphonies as if they're not as good,I wouldn't actually disagree with them. Yes,the later ones are the masterpieces;but like Brian's early symphonies,at least heard in context;the flaws apparent in Dvorak's early symphonies are part of their fascination. That growing sense of mastery as you go on. You really feel like you are setting out on a voyage of discovery.
Beethoven is a bit the same with No's 1 & 2. Wonderful music. For some reason No 4 has always been my favourite! (Of course there are all sorts of background issues relating to the Dvorak symphonies;I'm just taking the numbering of them as it stands today!)

[John Whitmore]

Vandermolen may have had a point!
I'm going to load the later symphonies into the cd changer now. I think I will take my 'journey' up to No17 (or 18?). I will listen out for that 'Muppet' theme in No16!! I have had No's 2,3,6-10 on for the last few days. Is Havergal Brian a little overrated?! All I can say is that I find them very satisfying to listen to,absorbing,stimulating,enigmatic,endlessly fascinating and like the best composers I've heard I never get bored! Dvorak and Beethoven are two other examples. I have previously referred to the problematic nature of some of Brian's early symphonies and the feeling of a composer learning as he goes along. I like the way you get that with the Dvorak symphonies. The early ones with their Wagnerian influences,with all their flaws,there are longeurs,but the compensation is Dvorak's rich imagination. What not to like about No 2 for example? Like Brian Dvorak's music has a bit of everything;atmosphere,tunes (Brian IS tuneful!),mystery,excitement,colour and humour! Of course they don't sound anything like each other;but when people refer to Dvorak's early symphonies as if they're not as good,I wouldn't actually disagree with them. Yes,the later ones are the masterpieces;but like Brian's early symphonies,at least heard in context;the flaws apparent in Dvorak's early symphonies are part of their fascination. That growing sense of mastery as you go on. You really feel like you are setting out on a voyage of discovery.
Beethoven is a bit the same with No's 1 & 2. Wonderful music. For some reason No 4 has always been my favourite! (Of course there are all sorts of background issues relating to the Dvorak symphonies;I'm just taking the numbering of them as it stands today!)

One key difference: Dvorak is a master of orchestration. He knows his way around the instruments. Brian is - to be topical - a total muppet by comparison 

[cilgwyn]

 

[cilgwyn]

Yes,Dvorak's problem was mainly one of finding his own voice,not his mastery of orchestration! You'll have to excuse these dumb comparisons,John!
Maybe I should have picked on Bruckner?!!

[vandermolen]

Don't forget Bill and Ben the flower pot men!

I'm old enough to remember them well and I also worked with a lady who was the narrator in 'Andy Pandy'. So, you see that I mix in very exclusive circles.

[vandermolen]

I think Brian's Second gets better and better as it progresses.  Your journey metaphor and 'warts and all' acceptance I can agree with. I think the main theme of the first movement, after all that buildup, is rather weak.  I have noticed that in more symphonies: 7, 9 and 29 have the same fault: great introduction but a rather unmemorable first theme. Back to no. 2: the final movement is the best, overall, but that too insistent Götterdämmerung motif hampers its progress a bit. Still - I like this symphony a lot. What, after all, can you write after The Gothic?!

This is a symphony I have learnt to appreciate much more in recent years. For me I have trouble getting into the later symphonies (after No. 17) apart from No. 22 which I rate very highly.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Hi, Jeffrey! Check your Facebook inbox...

[Sergeant Rock]

Am I the only Havergalian who loves the Fourth?    Maybe it's all that strident militarism that appeals to this old soldier boy 

Sarge