Havergal Brian.

[vandermolen]

I'll look out for the passage. The CD still has to get here. I never knew the North Sea was that wide...

Probably a bureaucratic Brexit-based delay. 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Probably a bureaucratic Brexit-based delay. 

One would expect a Brian Exit to mean fast shipping.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Just returned home from my aunt's 90th birthday to find the CD on my doormat!!

[cilgwyn]

At last!! We look forward to your thoughts on the new cd.
I wonder if your aunt is a Brian fan?!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

At last!! We look forward to your thoughts on the new cd.
I wonder if your aunt is a Brian fan?!

Ha! I did show her the two Gothic videos I posted on YouTube in 2011. She found the music impressive (and a bit loud).

Now reading John Pickard's booklet. I'm first going to listen to 14...

[cilgwyn]

She obviously has good taste. Play her Das Siegeslied next time you visit!!
No 14.....then No2. I like it! I suspect Sarge will be taking the same route,when he gets his!!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

It's a sharp lady...

It was a long day and I'm off to bed. I have listened to the CD. First reaction - very clean and clear readings. No. 2 sounds leaner and more muscular. The Finale again shows itself to be the strongest and most important movement. I listened out for Vandermolen's favourite passage at 11:30 - I concur. I had never heard that passage in that way, but he is right, it really is a breakthrough of light, which is not to last. As for 14 - as things now stand, I think the Downes has more mystery. But that could also be due to the bad recording sound!

To bed!

[André]

Having picked discs, internet links and youtube vids without restraint these last few years, I *think* I have all the Brian symphonies extant - 32 of them to be precise (* too lazy to get up and check, and only 10 fingers to count).

However, quantity does not make up for quality. My latest Brian listening binge a couple of years ago left me both unsatisfied and saturated. The trouble is that, in such a huge output, the products out there fail to meet expectations. From radio broadcasts to studio recordings, from student orchestras to professional ensembles, from haphazard programming to coherent programs, I find it difficult to make up a cogent aural image of the composer (he did, after all had a long career).

I wish there would be a serious effort to bring his oeuvre to light in a better way. Pending that, it's akin to travelling a bumpy country road with the occasional inn or rest area.

[Mirror Image]

Having picked discs, internet links and youtube vids without restraint these last few years, I *think* I have all the Brian symphonies extant - 32 of them to be precise (* too lazy to get up and check, and only 10 fingers to count).

However, quantity does not make up for quality. My latest Brian listening binge a couple of years ago left me both unsatisfied and saturated. The trouble is that, in such a huge output, the products out there fail to meet expectations. From radio broadcasts to studio recordings, from student orchestras to professional ensembles, from haphazard programming to coherent programs, I find it difficult to make up a cogent aural image of the composer (he did, after all had a long career).

I wish there would be a serious effort to bring his oeuvre to light in a better way. Pending that, it's akin to travelling a bumpy country road with the occasional inn or rest area.

I suppose this is where my trouble lies with Brian as well or at least to some extent. There's no question that the composer knew his craft and conjured up all kinds of interesting things, but the question I'm always left with after I hear a Brian piece is: did the music move me? I have yet to find one work of Brian's that has touched my heart and made me want to return again. Also a part of the trouble, for me, lies with Brian becoming merely a listening 'project'. I mean the guy composed A LOT of music and has a huge oeuvre, but where does the 'project' I began actually end and I'm just enjoying the music in the moment? This just doesn't happen and so, in turn, I get discouraged, which these reasons are why I haven't returned to Brian's music, because I can't find one positive reason as to why I should. I suppose ultimately what I'm looking for in music is melody, a great sense of harmony, lyricism, moments of pure heartbreak, and just a general dramatic atmosphere, but not the Wagnerian sense of dramatics. Unfortunately, I have to file Brian in the unlistenable category for now. I haven't closed the door completely, though. I'm going to keep trying, but the road ahead doesn't shine too brightly.

[André]

Very well put, although I think I'm a wee bit more optimistic than you are. 

For some time I had the same problem with the Langgard symphonies, running from very short to very long, cryptic and elliptic to effusively lyrical and broadly expansive, from post-straussian and scriabinesque to whatever it is that late Langgaard can be described as. Like I had done for Brian, I collected discs from all kinds of provenances, all of which had differing perspectives and miens. A hodge-podge for sure.

To make sure I had a coherent picture I purchased the integral set from Dausgaard on Dacapo. To be honest, I have no idea if the individual interpretations are better than those on the other labels I had. But it definitely helped put the whole shebang in a unified perspective. Because that is what is needed with Langaard: the man-as-composer was a beast with multiple heads.

I suspect such an enterprise would do Brian a lot of good.

[Mirror Image]

Very well put, although I think I'm a wee bit more optimistic than you are. 

For some time I had the same problem with the Langgard symphonies, running from very short to very long, cryptic and elliptic to effusively lyrical and broadly expansive, from post-straussian and scriabinesque to whatever it is that late Langgaard can be described as. Like I had done for Brian, I collected discs from all kinds of provenances, all of which had differing perspectives and miens. A hodge-podge for sure.

To make sure I had a coherent picture I purchased the integral set from Dausgaard on Dacapo. To be honest, I have no idea if the individual interpretations are better than those on the other labels I had. But it definitely helped put the whole shebang in a unified perspective. Because that is what is needed with Langaard: the man-as-composer was a beast with multiple heads.

I suspect such an enterprise would do Brian a lot of good.

Unfortunately, Brian is one of those niche composers (as many of the more unknown, or obscure, composers are) and only appeals to a certain select group of listeners, which this ongoing composer thread has faithfully demonstrated. Take Brian outside of this thread and possibly the Brian-related threads on other forums and the HBS (Havergal Brian Society) and what are you left with? Yes, the music is being recorded and these listeners are buying the recordings, but what lies beyond this? What's the bigger picture? Several GMGers attended Brian's Gothic when it was given a performance at the BBC Proms, but what about his other works? Who, besides the Brian fans here (and elsewhere), will be going to attend a concert of Brian's Symphony No. 6 if it's ever performed in London or elsewhere? I think a conductor such as a Dausgaard or an Alsop can record a composer's oeuvre and receive the go ahead from the record labels, but what this does for the composer's reputation remains a question mark. Langgaard was rescued from relative obscurity, but did this championship from Dausgaard do him any favors as far as being heard and brought to a wider audience? Again, the idea of the niche groups of listeners comes into play here. Perhaps a question is how can a big name conductor such as a Chailly or a Salonen bring the composer out of obscurity and into the public's conscious? I'm afraid in this regard it'll never happen, but perhaps I do need to be a bit more optimistic?

[André]

I don't think a 'big name conductor' is the answer to that conundrum. They are too busy planning their next concert seasons on three different continents plus various and sundry engagements on the main circuit. Big name conductors enter the 'inner circle' at their risks and perils. They are forever forbidden to have original thoughts in terms of programming. They are trapped !!

That being said, enterprising projects have seen the light of day: Neschling's Villa-Lobos cycle on CPO or the same label's dutch composers series, or Chandos' Weinberg symphonies (should it ever be completed) are a good example. A single perspective. Just so we, mere music lovers, can make up our minds.

[Mirror Image]

I don't think a 'big name conductor' is the answer to that conundrum. They are too busy planning their next concert seasons on three different continents plus various and sundry engagements on the main circuit. Big name conductors enter the 'inner circle' at their risks and perils. They are forever forbidden to have original thoughts in terms of programming. They are trapped !!

That being said, enterprising projects have seen the light of day: Neschling's Villa-Lobos cycle on CPO or the same label's dutch composers series, or Chandos' Weinberg symphonies (should it ever be completed) are a good example. A single perspective. Just so we, mere music lovers, can make up our minds.

Wouldn't you say the real problem lies with the general lack of interest in Brian's music itself and not necessarily with the recordings? From my own perspective, recordings aren't necessarily 'the problem'. The lack of unity or a recording project is something that can't be helped with Brian as there's nothing that can be done about it or that will be done it. It seems to stem from listeners just genuinely not having any interest or they have heard some of the music and didn't enjoy it. I mean when I listen to Sibelius, for example, I come away with something. A sense of fulfillment and a better appreciation of his music. It doesn't necessarily boil down to a conductor's singular vision, it boils down to the music making me proud that I listened and stuck around for it to finish. The music itself allures me. But I understand this is an apples/oranges scenario when I make comparisons with Sibelius who has had no shortage of unified visions and recording projects.

P.S. You must be referring to Carl St. Clair's Villa-Lobos symphony cycle on CPO and not Neschling (who recorded the Bachianas Brasileiras, Choros, and Forest of the Amazon for the BIS label).

[André]

Thanks, I got mixed up in my CPO discs. It is St-Clair indeed, anything but a name conductor!

Okay, I understand your POV, but mine (pretty much the same) is that maybe a different angle and lighting perspective would allow us to figure out if the music is at fault, or some other factor. And by what margin.

I'm still not convinced Charles Ives is a great composer or just a musical cuckoo. PhD theses galore have been written on his life and works. But the lack (IMHO) of a comprehensive aural testimony is not helping. Plus the fact that the man was very active in many genres.

As far as I know, Brian's output is limited to his symphonies and occasional orchestral score - a view that will probably be obsolete eventually.

Be that as it may, the 'niche composer' concept is certainly one that applies to Havergal Brian, as it does to Florent Schmitt, Goffredo Petrassi or Julius Röntgen. In all honesty, it should lead to a better understanding of these composr's works.

[Mirror Image]

Thanks, I got mixed up in my CPO discs. It is St-Clair indeed, anything but a name conductor!

Okay, I understand your POV, but mine (pretty much the same) is that maybe a different angle and lighting perspective would allow us to figure out if the music is at fault, or some other factor. And by what margin.

I'm still not convinced Charles Ives is a great composer or just a musical cuckoo. PhD theses galore have been written on his life and works. But the lack (IMHO) of a comprehensive aural testimony is not helping. Plus the fact that the man was very active in many genres.

As far as I know, Brian's output is limited to his symphonies and occasional orchestral score - a view that will probably be obsolete eventually.

Be that as it may, the 'niche composer' concept is certainly one that applies to Havergal Brian, as it does to Florent Schmitt, Goffredo Petrassi or Julius Röntgen. In all honesty, it should lead to a better understanding of these composr's works.

In all honesty, I doubt a major recording project would make me look at Brian's music any differently, but, yes, the man wrote a lot of music and a lot of it doesn't really get the kind of attention his symphonies do, but one last thing about all of this and then I promise I'll drop it, even if a composer has a huge oeuvre like Martinu or Villa-Lobos with Brian, I'm still left scratching my head as even with all of the scattered recordings of Villa-Lobos and Martinu that are available, I still have an idea of who they were as composers and what their styles consist of and, more importantly, how they sound when they're inspired or whenever I feel they're just note-spinning. With Brian, I don't know whether he's note-spinning or yanking my chain or anything because his music doesn't have anything within it that pulls at my heartstrings or gives me intellectual stimulation or both. It's just there for me to hear and that's all.

Okay, I think I'll put a sock in it now as I've derailed this thread for too long and I don't want to take up any more of people's time, especially for those that are fans of Brian's music.

[André]

MI. I honestly have the very same reaction. 

Only, my old banker's attitude is to collect all the facts PLUS my personal feelings before I make a decision. In this case, I simply feel the facts are not sufficient to carry the argument one way or the other. I just wish the 'facts' were more tightly and cogently put together.

[Mirror Image]

MI. I honestly have the very same reaction. 

Only, my old banker's attitude is to collect all the facts PLUS my personal feelings before I make a decision. In this case, I simply feel the facts are not sufficient to carry the argument one way or the other. I just wish the 'facts' were more tightly and cogently put together.

Well, I didn't really look at any of this as an argument, but merely an expressing of two different ideals of why Brian isn't a more well-known composer.

[vandermolen]

One would expect a Brian Exit to mean fast shipping.

Very good! 

Glad you liked that passage in the last movement too. 

[vandermolen]

Just returned home from my aunt's 90th birthday to find the CD on my doormat!!

What a shame that it didn't arrive before the birthday gathering. I'm sure that having the Havergal Brian played by you at top volume would have been the 'icing on the cake' for your aunt's birthday celebrations. 
Hope she had a nice day despite this disappointment.

[cilgwyn]

Interesting to hear your reactions to the new cd,Johann. I've just received Vol 3 of The Symphonies of Havergal Brian by Malcolm MacDonald. It IS in 'Very Good' condition. A nice clean edition  complete with dustjacket;unlike Volume 1,which didn't have one. The book is about a hundred,or so,pages fatter than Vol 1;so plenty to read there. I haven't had time to really look at it yet,though;but a cursory leaf through tells me that this is allot more than just an appendix. I think this book is probably.....IS.....essential reading for converts to the cause and would be of great help to those who are intrigued but still somewhat baffled by exactly what turns us Brian enthusiasts on. Unfortunately,the books are out of print. Isn't there any hope of these books being republished? Long out of print books do get republished,and I know that these books have done allot to open peoples minds to Brian's muse. I know the Rutland Boughton Trust managed to secure a reprint of Michael Hurd's,so it can be done. Three volumes,though!!
Nice to see some other GMG Forum members contributing to the thread. I think it's possible they may be right about Brian remaining a niche interest. That said,I do think it is possible that recordings of the quality of the recent ones from Dutton and Naxos can do allot to introduce new listeners and maybe make that niche audience a little larger. Of course it's quite possible (and possibly true) that either you 'get' Brian's muse or you don't. Needless to say,I DO!

That 'Seer' won't be getting the sack,by the way. 'He' was almost right. Although,I'm still trying to get my head around the fact that a package that was to be delivered tomorrow was already there!!

Incidentally,what do you think of the organ,Johann?!!