Counterpoint

[Ten thumbs]

Lets agree to call it . . . . . music!

[jochanaan]

Lets agree to call it . . . . . music!

Works for me!

[johnQpublic]

i didn't see a link on here, for this, so i might as well put it up:

http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~tas3/wtc.html

The ULTIMATE counterpoint site, anyone interested has to check it out

Nope. The ultimate is Room 304 of the Music Center where I teach a course in counterpoint every Fall semester...hehe

[quintett op.57]

Even fugues usually start with one voice--monophonic for the first few measures!

But not 4'33

[Haffner]

Nope. The ultimate is Room 304 of the Music Center where I teach a course in counterpoint every Fall semester...hehe

Wish like hell I could take your course !

[mahlertitan]

on par..... well...... if you define "on par" as being "good/to your liking/enjoyable" then it's possible. But I don't think anyone has ever done the things Bach has done with counterpoint, his is definetely the most complex. And then after him, in terms of complexity, Webern and maybe Hindemith?

i think if they wanted to write like Bach, they would've done it easily.

[71 dB]

Beethoven, Mahler and Mozart had written counterpoint on par with Bach.

Mozart showed nice skills in counterpoint every now and then. Last night I listened to his symphony No. 31 and the third movement is nice in this sense. 

[jochanaan]

"Nice skills," 71 dB?  Check out the last movement of Symphony #41, the "Jupiter," if you want to hear some really masterful counterpoint.  Or the Requiem's Kyrie.

And Beethoven was just as great a master, as evidenced by the fugatos in his Ninth Symphony and Missa Solemnis and, especially, the Grosse Fuge for string quartet.

[karlhenning]

"Nice skills," 71 dB?

Oh, did that source comment ever have the look of "Dilettante Tries to Look Down On Master, Sprains Neck in Process" . . . .

[Haffner]

"Nice skills," 71 dB?  Check out the last movement of Symphony #41, the "Jupiter," if you want to hear some really masterful counterpoint.  Or the Requiem's Kyrie.

And Beethoven was just as great a master, as evidenced by the fugatos in his Ninth Symphony and Missa Solemnis and, especially, the Grosse Fuge for string quartet.

Great examples. The last movement of the "Jupiter" Symphony is phenomenally inspiring. I'd put it at the same (or even higher) level of quality/timelessness as Bach's Violin Concerto   and Toccata in D Minor, the 5th Brandenburg Concerto, the Mass in B minor...probably even more. The way that Mozart interwove the differing motifs in that last movement are a wonder of composition. The movement is propulsive to the extreme...like being jettisioned in Heaven, where the Angels play the Orchestra. O don't get that anywhere near as much as I do from Bach...even in the vocal pieces.

Again, I must lavish praise on Bach's work as a whole, one of my favorite pieces is the unbelievably brilliant (at the time "pre-romantically chromatic") Passacalgia in C minor.

[Haffner]

Oh, did that source comment ever have the look of "Dilettante Tries to Look Down On Master, Sprains Neck in Process" . . . .

I'm guilty of falling on my face as well. I might have again just done so. But I know what I love, and the "Jupiter" sounds as fresh as it ever has. It's like Mozart reached out over 2 centuries and gave us glorious Light...the type that Schubert attributed to him. The last movement of k387 is another, life affirming example.

[bwv 1080]

I am becoming more and more convinced that EC is every bit the equal of Bach, Beethoven and Mozart in his use of counterpoint (of course nothing they wrote approaches the complexity of the 3rd SQ).  After repeated exposure, keeping the various voices all in the same tempo begins to seem like somewhat of a limitation of earlier approaches.

[Haffner]

I am becoming more and more convinced that EC is every bit the equal of Bach, Beethoven and Mozart in his use of counterpoint (of course nothing they wrote approaches the complexity of the 3rd SQ).  After repeated exposure, keeping the various voices all in the same tempo begins to seem like somewhat of a limitation of earlier approaches.

I'm lost, (this is a regular occurence for me duh). WHo is EC?

[71 dB]

"Nice skills," 71 dB?  Check out the last movement of Symphony #41, the "Jupiter," if you want to hear some really masterful counterpoint.  Or the Requiem's Kyrie.

And Beethoven was just as great a master, as evidenced by the fugatos in his Ninth Symphony and Missa Solemnis and, especially, the Grosse Fuge for string quartet.

Jupiter's last movement is wonderful, of course. 

However, Mozart and Beethoven were not only masters of counterpoint (in fact Beethoven wasn't that good anyway). Romantic composers were skilled in counterpoint too. Elgar's ultra-sophisticated music is some kind of super-counterpoint, interaction of higher musical structures.

[bwv 1080]

I'm lost, (this is a regular occurence for me duh). WHo is EC?

Elliott Carter

[Haffner]

Jupiter's last movement is wonderful, of course. 

However, Mozart and Beethoven were not only masters of counterpoint (in fact Beethoven wasn't that good anyway). Romantic composers were skilled in counterpoint too. Elgar's ultra-sophisticated music is some kind of super-counterpoint, interaction of higher musical structures.

Elgar has a great command of the technique. Maybe you might again try Beethoven's Grosse Fuge for some of his most advanced counterpoint.

[karlhenning]

Elgar's ultra-sophisticated music is some kind of super-counterpoint, interaction of higher musical structures.

Good gravy; can bugaboo about 'vibrational fields' be far behind?

[71 dB]

Maybe you might again try Beethoven's Grosse Fuge for some of his most advanced counterpoint.

I don't deny Grosse Fuge's merits (I love it!). I mean Beethoven wasn't in my opinion an ultimate master of counterpoint among many other composers. Bach > Mozart > Beethoven.

[karlhenning]

EC was a contrapuntal composer and made great efforts studying it under Nadia Boulanger...however, what about the meaning behind a lot of Carter and music of this nature? Is it as transcendent?

The best of it is as transcendent as the best of Bach, yes.

A lot of it seems like mere arbitrary gestures than all else, complexity for the sake of it, experimental, his personal formal & structural designs/contrivances

The irony here, James, is that this is identical to criticisms levelled at Bach late in his own life and career.

[Haffner]

Mozart is much less austere than Bach, its simpler and much more easily digestable and not as dense musically. Bach didnt write music for dramatic purposes & public pleasing entertainment like Mozart (or Handel) did...the meaning of Bach ran much much deeper...I can appreciate activity, colour & variety in music, but never confuse it with real substance.

Ah, thanks for correcting me. How could I have forgotten that music has to be less accessible to have real substance. I stand abashed and apologetic for my dismissible preferences.