Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?

[karlhenning]

I've been following this thread with interest. I don't own the Stars Wars soundtrack, but the discussion has prompted me to order this recording:

Good gracious, The Skywalker Symphony.

An icon for pretension. (Or is that the name of an ad hoc ensemble? . . .)

[Szykneij]

Good gracious, The Skywalker Symphony.

An icon for pretension. (Or is that the name of an ad hoc ensemble? . . .)

I'm assuming that's the name of one of the pieces, but I could be wrong. Williams might have pulled a Leroy Anderson because I think it was recorded when he was conducting the Pops. I'll let you know when it comes in the mail.

[DavidRoss]

Immature artists imitate. Mature artists steal.
Lionel Trilling

According to Encyclopedia Brittanica, in 1920 (the year Trilling turned 15) T.S. Eliot said in The Sacred Wood: "Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better."

[(poco) Sforzando]

They're all excellent citations. This one is especially germane, considering Williams's imitations.

More:

What oft was thought but ne'er so well expressed.
- Alexander Pope, "An Essay on Man"

The Church-yard [Gray's Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard - Sfz] abounds with images which find a mirrour in every mind, and with sentiments to which every bosom returns an echo. The four stanzas beginning "Yet even these bones" are to me original: I have never seen the notions in any other place; yet he that reads them here persuades himself that he has always felt them.
- Dr. Samuel Johnson's "Life of Thomas Gray"

The best moments in reading are when you come across something - a thought, a feeling, a way of looking at things - which you had thought special and particular to you. Now here it is, set down by someone else, a person you have never met, someone even who is long dead. And it is as if a hand has come out and taken yours.
- Douglas Hector, in Alan Bennett's "The History Boys"

I'm sure there's some interesting material from Stravinsky, responding to complaints that he had copied Mozart in The Rake's Progress, but I have to dig it up.

[jowcol]

I've been following this thread with interest. I don't own the Stars Wars soundtrack, but the discussion has prompted me to order this recording:



Because the pieces on this CD are arranged as performance compositions, are those who answered "no" t

Personally, I found it telling  that Williams didn't find any greater goal and unity in scoring the Star Wars films, while a Copeland felt he was adding a new dimension to another art form.


Next question-- Does the Star Wars Christmas Album count as  classical music?

http://www.starwars.com/vault/collecting/music/20081222.html
http://wonderfulwonderblog.blogspot.com/2006/11/christmas-in-stars.html

[(poco) Sforzando]

Next question-- Does the Star Wars Christmas Album count as  classical music?

I'm not sure it counts as Christmas music.

[Szykneij]

Next question-- Does the Star Wars Christmas Album count as  classical music?

No, but this is an interesting bit of trivia from the liner notes:

However, the most trivia-worthy album liner note is the debut of a then 18-year-old Jon Bon Jovi, who ends up singing with a high school choir on "R2-D2 We Wish You A Merry Christmas." At the time the album was in production, Jon Bon Jovi , then known as John Bongiovi, swept floors and did odd jobs at the famous New York City recording studio Power Station, ran by Jon's cousin Tony Bongiovi. As Meco auditioned singers for Christmas in the Stars, Tony suggested Jon for one of the lead vocal parts, and the rest is caroling history. Soon after Jon's singing debut, he recorded his own demo at the Power Station which included a hit song called "Runaway." The single eventually led to a deal with Mercury in 1983.

[karlhenning]

I'm not sure it counts as Christmas music.

While Jedi watched Ewoks by night . . . .

[(poco) Sforzando]

While Jedi watched Ewoks by night . . . .

The Little Drummer Droid -
"Come, they told me, pah [squeak squiggle squawk jangle jingle]"

"Yoda nodded . . . . "

"Jabba the Hut kept time. . . "

[karlhenning]

"Jabba the Hut kept time. . . "

I shouldn't have thought that possible.

[jowcol]

According to Encyclopedia Brittanica, in 1920 (the year Trilling turned 15) T.S. Eliot said in The Sacred Wood: "Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better."

I've found that quote, or similar sentiments attributed  to  a lot of different people.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I shouldn't have thought that possible.

Nobody else fit the music.

[karlhenning]

Well, perhaps they've redesigned the costume to make it happen : )

[Jaakko Keskinen]

I count it completely as classical music. Williams is one of my favorite movie composers along with Ennio Morricone, James Horner and Danny Elfman. I think Williams's style is quite Wagner/Richard Strauss stylish (and no, not just because of leitmotives). Btw, have you noticed some similarities between some of the musical motives between Wagner's works and Star Wars, let's say... Siegfried's motive compared to "Force theme" or "Main theme/Luke Skywalker's theme". And I always think of Siegmund and Sieglinde are similar to Luke and Leia (incest is pretty damn close with Luke and Leia, Leia even said she had always somehow known Luke was his brother). But it's not like incest hasn't been used in many other works...

edit: I am not implying that Williams is even close to Wagner's talent, my favorite composer goes way ahead of anyone. But it's not like Wagner "invented" leitmotive, even Mozart had used it in some context, it was just Wagner who really gave purpose to it and developed it to full mastery. John Williams's scores are not nearly as magnificently constructed as Wagner's dramas, but I wouldn't still call him lousy. But that's just my opinion. And IMO Williams is not stealing as much as he is doing homage...

[Mirror Image]

I count it completely as classical music. Williams is one of my favorite movie composers along with Ennio Morricone, James Horner and Danny Elfman. I think Williams's style is quite Wagner/Richard Strauss stylish (and no, not just because of leitmotives). Btw, have you noticed some similarities between some of the musical motives between Wagner's works and Star Wars, let's say... Siegfried's motive compared to "Force theme" or "Main theme/Luke Skywalker's theme". And I always think of Siegmund and Sieglinde are similar to Luke and Leia (incest is pretty damn close with Luke and Leia, Leia even said she had always somehow known Luke was his brother). But it's not like incest hasn't been used in many other works...

The only thing I can gather from this post, in my mind, is Star Wars + Wagner = one of the most outlandish comparisons I've ever read in my life. Williams is a lousy composer outside of film scores, but even within this very narrow medium he's still a hack in my opinion. He's probably one of the biggest rip-off artists I've witnessed. Poor Wagner and Elgar have suffered enough under the pen of John Williams. Thankfully, composing music for film at one point in history was about artistic statement, but sadly now it's merely a second-rate medium that has nothing to offer the serious minded classical listener.

[Philoctetes]

The only thing I can gather from this post, in my mind, is Star Wars + Wagner = one of the most outlandish comparisons I've ever read in my life. Williams is a lousy composer outside of film scores, but even within this very narrow medium he's still a hack in my opinion. He's probably one of the biggest rip-off artists I've witnessed. Poor Wagner and Elgar have suffered enough under the pen of John Williams. Thankfully, composing music for film at one point in history was about artistic statement, but sadly now it's merely a second-rate medium that has nothing to offer the serious minded classical listener.

Such class.

[mc ukrneal]

The only thing I can gather from this post, in my mind, is Star Wars + Wagner = one of the most outlandish comparisons I've ever read in my life. Williams is a lousy composer outside of film scores, but even within this very narrow medium he's still a hack in my opinion. He's probably one of the biggest rip-off artists I've witnessed. Poor Wagner and Elgar have suffered enough under the pen of John Williams. Thankfully, composing music for film at one point in history was about artistic statement, but sadly now it's merely a second-rate medium that has nothing to offer the serious minded classical listener.

I disagree. But what I want to focus on in your post is your claim of plagerism. You've mentioned Elgar and Wagner. Many mention Holst. The fact is that while some of stuff is similar, they are not out and out 'ripping off', which means taking note for note the exact work that these other composers composed. A good example of what I am talking about is Puccini's Girl of the Golden West, where you can hear, note for note, the exact same melody (with no change) for a few bars/seconds in Phantom of the Opera (Andrew Llody Webber). I'd be interested to see if there are any such similar examples you can provide of Williams. Keep in mind that I think the bar (or prood) is for 'identical melodies' and not similar ideas. Perhaps you would disagree with this as well, which would explain much of the disagreement if so.

[Mirror Image]

I disagree. But what I want to focus on in your post is your claim of plagerism. You've mentioned Elgar and Wagner. Many mention Holst. The fact is that while some of stuff is similar, they are not out and out 'ripping off', which means taking note for note the exact work that these other composers composed. A good example of what I am talking about is Puccini's Girl of the Golden West, where you can hear, note for note, the exact same melody (with no change) for a few bars/seconds in Phantom of the Opera (Andrew Llody Webber). I'd be interested to see if there are any such similar examples you can provide of Williams. Keep in mind that I think the bar (or prood) is for 'identical melodies' and not similar ideas. Perhaps you would disagree with this as well, which would explain much of the disagreement if so.

So I take you're an admirer of John Williams?

[Bulldog]

I count it completely as classical music.

Well, it's soundtrack music for the silver screen, be it exceptional or poor.  To be honest, I don't have a high opinion of either the Star Wars film or its music.  My father-in-law and I took my kids to see the movie; both of us were looking forward to leaving the theatre.  Of course, my kids loved the film. 

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Well, I can say that at least prequels suck. Except Williams's music and few actors. I still don't think that by awknowledging Williams's genius it takes anything away from Wagner, who is the ultimate master for me.