Discrimination against progressives?

[Bulldog]

Well, why don't we try it and see? Are you afraid it actually works? You are not willing to have pedophile problem solved if it means making your conservative opinions look silly. This does not make you an asshole but it makes you selfish. I am ready to take the risk to be proven wrong for the sake of children. 

Total nonsense.

It strikes me that there is one major difference in our respective views on this matter.  You possess some kind of empathy toward the pedophile; I do not.  For the sake of our children, we can't afford to have empathy for these vultures. 

[The new erato]

Total nonsense.

It strikes me that there is one major difference in our respective views on this matter.  You possess some kind of empathy toward the pedophile; I do not.  For the sake of our children, we can't afford to have empathy for these vultures.

An pedophile who keeps his impulses in check is not a criminal. That is the crux of the problem. Empathy or not.

[Bulldog]

An pedophile who keeps his impulses in check is not a criminal. That is the crux of the problem. Empathy or not.

Our prayers have been answered.  There's a website titled " How to Spot a Pedophile".  All we have to do is get a good handle on how to spot them and then we can simply eradicate them. 

[71 dB]

Total nonsense.

It strikes me that there is one major difference in our respective views on this matter.  You possess some kind of empathy toward the pedophile; I do not.  For the sake of our children, we can't afford to have empathy for these vultures.

Okay, lets remove all empathy in the society and lets see what happens. I can guarantee it isn't fun to watch. Anyway, this is my last post on the subject. Now I will concentrate on my vacation-.

[Bulldog]

Okay, lets remove all empathy in the society and lets see what happens. I can guarantee it isn't fun to watch. Anyway, this is my last post on the subject. Now I will concentrate on my vacation-.

Don't be so extreme.  I wasn't advocating removing all empathy, just that for pedophiles.  I have empathy for you and hope you don't come across any pedophiles on your vacation (no serial killers or terrorists either).

[Josquin des Prez]

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=spot_the_pedo

Hey, it actually works:

[Josquin des Prez]

I would like to restate one of the biggest fallacies in 71 dB's argument, chiefly, the idea that pedophiles simply cannot "help" themselves (meaning, they have no choice regarding their urges, its just a matter of whether they decide to act on them or not). I propose that pedophiles do not in fact posses a special "attraction" for children, and are simply perverts and sexual degenerates with a fetish for younger children. 

More news from the bizzarro world that is progressive thinking. Transsexual pervert who downloaded child porn spared jail because judge says it would be 'an appalling experience':

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1294620/Transsexual-pervert-downloaded-child-porn-spared-jail.html

[DavidRoss]

Okay. In life we must make choices. We make the choices that we think are the best. Sometimes we choose well, sometime we choose poorly. We can choose to do nothing. Some children will be molested by pedophiles. I don't accept that as long as there are solutions that might help. So, are we doing something to these problems or not?

You said again. That's the problem. I want to prevent ALL molesting. It's clear as day that if someone keeps molesting then putting behind bars is the only solution to protect children. But why don't we help people from becomming criminals in the first place? That's what we want, a non-criminal world.

There are 2 million prisoners locked in US and still that nation suffers from criminals. As long as American people don't see the benefits of softer tools to prevent crimes, nothing will change (for the better at least).

You are living in a fantasy world.  (Redundant, I know, but necessary to bear in mind.)  In the U.S., roughly 3% of adult males and nearly 1% of adult females suffer from Antisocial Personality Disorder.   These psychopaths comprise 80% of male prison inmates and 65% of female prison inmates.  Your touchy-feely wishful thinking approach to dealing with these predators is no more effective with them than with a pack of hungry hyenas.   

[knight66]

Quote from 71bd
'You said again. That's the problem. I want to prevent ALL molesting. It's clear as day that if someone keeps molesting then putting behind bars is the only solution to protect children. But why don't we help people from becoming criminals in the first place? That's what we want, a noncriminal world.'


I am not with your line of argument here. A number of people with pedophile tendencies do not act out on them. Anyone with such tendencies can obtain help here in the UK if they want that help to prevent them acting out in any way.

A significant proportion of established pedophiles are eager for counselling, which is used to establish a track record of intent to change; when the reality is they do not intend to change at all. Willingness to enter a programme gives them some credibility which is then used as a cover.

Many can never be brought to the point of admitting that what they did was wrong and see the act, or claim to see the act, as an expression of love for the child, moreover one that the child invited and enjoyed.

I am not interested in discussing the topic of 'evil' here. Lots of roads lead an abuser to abuse, many men have themselves been profoundly abused from an early age, making an acceptable lifestyle an outside chance for them.

I have spent many years counselling victims of sexual abuse. I have therefore had to learn a deal about the other side of the transaction. As the victim it is a difficult act to recover from; but it is much more intractable to reorientate the appetites or thinking processes of the acting-out pedophile.

By the way, I am not in sympathy here with the definitions of 'progressive' which is being turned into a form of abuse, but I do agree with the judge in Manchester.

The facts of that case would have made it likely that the perpetrator would not have come out alive. Though that may be an acceptable outcome for many onlookers; the justice system has a duty of care placed on it for those in its charge. It is clear that the person involved is deeply disturbed. It may also be noted that the individual seemed not to have contact with any child, the charge was on possession of pornography.

I have no ready solutions. Any that there are, are slow and have very limited success.

I don't understand why this topic keeps reappearing on this thread. I detect little progress in the discussion; which feels more an attempt to score debating points rather than have an adult discussion of the topic. Perhaps it can be given a rest; a permanent one.

Mike

[Teresa]

In the USA children are NOT safe from pedophiles as we treat them as criminals which means as soon as they serve their sentence they are released from prison.  Time DOES NOT cure pedophiles, even the government knows this and requires them to register as sex offenders when released from Prison. 

71 dB's proposal, which is indeed a Progressive one would keep society's children SAFE from pedophiles as they would NEVER be around children unless they are cured. 

If you go back and read 71 dB's and my original posts you would see he advocates pedophiles being institutionalized until and only if they are cured.  If they are NOT cured they would be institutionalized for life.  Ideally would-be pedophiles would seek treatment before they ever act on their urges. 

Personally I prefer 71 dB's option of keeping pedophiles away from children until they are actually cured.  Out current system allowing pedophiles back on the streets after they serve their sentence often with no therapy just sucks and makes an unsafe environment for children. 

I cannot understand people hating Progessive ideas so much they would rather live in a violent unsafe world.

Long live the Green Party, and Progressives who would keep the world a safe place to raise children without fear, clean air to breath, clean water to drink, with no one going to bed hungry and a livable wage for all!

Jesus Christ was a Progressive.     He preached to love your enemies, to love the sinner but not the sin, to feed the poor and make the world a better place.

[DavidRoss]

I cannot understand people hating Progessive ideas so much they would rather live in a violent unsafe world.

Everyone loves "Progressive" ideas, but the difference between theory and practice is appalling.  How painfully ironic that after the horrifying failure of "Progressive" 20th Century nation-states, with millions upon millions of dead, tortured, imprisoned, enslaved, starved, and otherwise brutalized, this ideological cancer is thriving again among those with too little sense to recognize the difference between pretty words and brutal facts.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Everyone loves "Progressive" ideas, but the difference between theory and practice is appalling.  How painfully ironic that after the horrifying failure of "Progressive" 20th Century nation-states, with millions upon millions of dead, tortured, imprisoned, enslaved, starved, and otherwise brutalized, this ideological cancer is thriving again among those with too little sense to recognize the difference between pretty words and brutal facts.

If you're going to make such allegations, I really wish you'd be more specific. It's a long way from Stalinist Russia or Maoist China, where indeed there were "millions upon millions of dead, tortured, imprisoned, enslaved, starved, and otherwise brutalized," to the America of today - if that's your intended drift.

[drogulus]

    I don't think TR, Brandeis, Dewey or Lippmann would recognize the versions of progressive here. I'm not surprised by such ignorance, just disappointed.

    Progressives were wrong about some things, and one big thing many were wrong about was eugenics. But at that time eugenics was popular among many non-Progressives as well. Lincoln was wrong about the capacities of the different races, yet we still rightly revere him because he was right about so much else.

[DavidRoss]

If you're going to make such allegations, I really wish you'd be more specific. It's a long way from Stalinist Russia or Maoist China, where indeed there were "millions upon millions of dead, tortured, imprisoned, enslaved, starved, and otherwise brutalized," to the America of today - if that's your intended drift.

Stalin's Russia and Mao's China are primary examples of the consequences of concentrating power in the hands of an elite.  Our society is flirting with the tipping point, and the way to such ruthlessness is not nearly as long as you imagine.  We have a plurality that is willing to enslave their own children for the sake of false promises and pretty fantasies.  What happens when the system breaks?  The current recession--a consequence of liberal meddling with traditional prudent lending practice during the '90s--is but a hint of what lies in store for us if we keep marching blindly down the garden path.  Step back and get the long view of the historical forces at play...we live in interesting times, indeed!

[Teresa]

Stalin's Russia and Mao's China are primary examples of the consequences of concentrating power in the hands of an elite. 

Indeed!  Progressives agree completely and are against this and are for FULL democracy.  Get it through your thick head Progressives have nothing whatsoever to do with Communism, Liberalism or Conservatism.

From the Green Party home page

"Our political goal is an America where decisions are made by the people and not by a few giant corporations.  Our environmental goal is a sustainable world where nature and human society co-exist in harmony."

[Josquin des Prez]

And what happens when the people chose things that are in direct contradiction with progressive ideology? What happens if people chose to vote against abortion, to bar gay marriage, to propose that women should stay at home and raise children? Will the green party respect the wishes of the people, or will they wage a campaign of social engineering through the media and our educational systems in order to brainwash and bend people over to progressive principles? 

[Teresa]

And what happens when the people chose things that are in direct contradiction with progressive ideology? What happens if people chose to vote against abortion, to bar gay marriage, to propose that women should stay at home and raise children? Will the green party respect the wishes of the people, or will they wage a campaign of social engineering through the media and our educational systems in order to brainwash and bend people over to progressive principles?

Quite simple really if the majority agree to ban abortion then it is back to back alley abortions and the deaths of thousands of women until the majority agree once again to lift the ban.

If the majority ban gay marriage, then gays won't be able to marry until the majority decide otherwise.  In also means education to help non-gays realize the advantages of extending the same privileges to gay couples. 

Do you not know how democracy works?

Finally it is up to the couple and their finances if the wife has to work or not.  Progressives would never make such an important decision for others.  It's called freedom.

No one ever needs to be brainwashed to DO THE RIGHT THING, they just need to be introduced to the right thing.  I believe in people's moral values and their decisions as a group to do what is right when they are actually given the options. 

Every single platform of the Green Party is a great benefit to every single living human being.  Making a better world by doing the right things does require learning, and caring about your fellow men and women.

[greg]

Quite simple really if the majority agree to ban abortion then it is back to back alley abortions and the deaths of millions of women until the majority agree once again to lift the ban.

If the majority ban gay marriage, then gays won't be able to marry until the majority decide otherwise.  In also means education to help non-gays realize the advantages of extending the same privileges to gay couples. 

Do you not know how democracy works?

Finally it is up to the couple and their finances if the wife has to work or not.  Progressives would never make such an important decision for others.  It's called freedom.

No one ever needs to be brainwashed to DO THE RIGHT THING, they just need to be introduced to the the right thing.  I believe in people's moral values and their decisions as a group to do what is right when they are actually given the options. 

Every single platform of the Green Party is a great benefit to every single living human being.  Making a better world by doing the right things does require learning, and caring about your fellow men and women.

Does the Green Party also want to ban Schoenberg?


(sorry, I'm just bored) 

[(poco) Sforzando]

Stalin's Russia and Mao's China are primary examples of the consequences of concentrating power in the hands of an elite.  Our society is flirting with the tipping point, and the way to such ruthlessness is not nearly as long as you imagine.  We have a plurality that is willing to enslave their own children for the sake of false promises and pretty fantasies.  What happens when the system breaks?  The current recession--a consequence of liberal meddling with traditional prudent lending practice during the '90s--is but a hint of what lies in store for us if we keep marching blindly down the garden path.  Step back and get the long view of the historical forces at play...we live in interesting times, indeed!

Since you apparently don't take truth seriously in small matters . . . .

[Josquin des Prez]

Quite simple really if the majority agree to ban abortion then it is back to back alley abortions and the deaths of millions of women until the majority agree once again to lift the ban.

You have already begun to peddle your propaganda by slapping some nasty strawman right on your first sentence. Thanks for proving my point.

If the majority ban gay marriage, then gays won't be able to marry until the majority decide otherwise.  In also means education to help non-gays realize the advantages of extending the same privileges to gay couples. 

Precisely what i said. If the population disagrees with progressive principles, then it is your duty to convert them.

Do you not know how democracy works?

A system by which a selected few can rule the majority by means of manipulation as opposed to authority. America is blessed enough to have both forms of oppression.

No one ever needs to be brainwashed to DO THE RIGHT THING, they just need to be introduced to the the right thing.

You are starting to sound like a soviet commissar. I suppose those who simply cannot understand why the progressive way is the right way must be deemed insane by the state and sent to the nearest reeducation facility or asylum.