Why the string dominance?

[Ciel_Rouge]

As I continue my quest for piano pieces to listen to something different for a change, I realised how limited the output is when compared to the number of pieces containing some sort of string instrument. I mean the number of piano composers is very limited compared to those writing for the whole symphonic orchestra, chamber or solo works for strings. Sure, the piano is only one instrument and has been invented and perfected relatively recently, yet the ubiquity of strings is a bit puzzling. Why don't we have a stronger, say... woodwind presence in the classical? Why are the strings mostly associated with the classical genre and not something else? Besides, why haven't the more recent instruments like the accordion, saxophone or ondes Martenot taken their share in the classical repertory in later decades?

[some guy]

Really? You haven't found the piano to be ubiquitous? It's all over the place. Very few composers of orchestral pieces do not also have piano works of the highest order, either concerti or solo or both. Sibelius. Nielsen. Bizet. Berlioz. Wagner. And that's been true for the past two hundred years or more.

If I started a list of people who have significant piano works in their output, I'd never be done.

Woodwind presence seems very high, too. True, the string quartet is quite a frequent thing, more so than a wind or brass quintet, say. But that's as may be. And there are more violin concertos than flute or clarinet or accordion concertos. That's true. But that doesn't mean the winds are not significant. Very few string symphonies I guess would be my point.

There are a lot of works for or with accordion, saxophone, and ondes martenot in twentieth century works. I don't have too many ondes martenot CDs myself, but I do have a few. And I have dozens of CDs with saxophones and accordions, though I do have more turntable CDs than of any of the three you mentioned. Occasionally there'll be a string sound on an LP that cuts through all the other noises--scratching, feedback, crackling, rumbling, skipping and the like--but not very often!

In short, you needn't despair. The repertoire is not as limited as it seems to you right this minute.

Here, just because it's so easy, are a few composers with significant piano works: Mozart, Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Schubert, Chopin, Liszt, Grieg, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Saint-Saens, Debussy, Ravel, Bartok, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Cage, Ligeti, Rzewski, Stockhausen, Scelsi, ten Holt, Reich, Young. I think if just three other people were to add only five composers each to this list, then there'd be 39 composers on it.

[Brian]

Here, just because it's so easy, are a few composers with significant piano works: Mozart, Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Schubert, Chopin, Liszt, Grieg, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Saint-Saens, Debussy, Ravel, Bartok, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Cage, Ligeti, Rzewski, Stockhausen, Scelsi, ten Holt, Reich, Young. I think if just three other people were to add only five composers each to this list, then there'd be 39 composers on it.

Well, here are five: Rachmaninov, Schumann, Scriabin, Rszewski, Kapustin.

Our very own forum member Karl Henning is what I might call an expert in music for the solo clarinet, having composed some excellent works in that line himself!

[Maciek]

I'm guessing Rzewski and Rszewski are the same person...?

[Air]

Well, here are five: Rachmaninov, Schumann, Scriabin, Rszewski, Kapustin.

And 11 more to complete the 39: Medtner, Alkan, Herz, Hummel, Cowell, Gubaidulina, Janacek, MacDowell, Albeniz, Villa-Lobos, Khachaturian.

Personally, I think solo piano is one of the deepest and most interesting of all genres. 

[some guy]

So Ciel, have we made you grin, yet?

[Brian]

I'm guessing Rzewski and Rszewski are the same person...?

Aw, crap. Well here are two more to make up for it: Kabalevsky, Moszkowski.

[Cristofori]

And I have dozens of CDs with saxophones and accordions, though I do have more turntable CDs than of any of the three you mentioned. Occasionally there'll be a string sound on an LP that cuts through all the other noises--scratching, feedback, crackling, rumbling, skipping and the like--but not very often!

Huh? You "occasionally get a string sound"? What kind of LP's are you listening too, and what are you listening to them on?

[Ciel_Rouge]

Thank you all, I see this thread did not go in the direction of a string debate but turned towards piano recommendations which are very useful to me at this point. I guess this was my subjective view - it was sort of easier for me to identify with grand symphonic pieces and they now make the majority of my collection, with only a little bit of chamber and practically none solo piano. But thanks to you, that will probably change soon.

[71 dB]

F a u r é !
G r a n a d o s !

[Scarpia]

Thank you all, I see this thread did not go in the direction of a string debate but turned towards piano recommendations which are very useful to me at this point. I guess this was my subjective view - it was sort of easier for me to identify with grand symphonic pieces and they now make the majority of my collection, with only a little bit of chamber and practically none solo piano. But thanks to you, that will probably change soon.

Quite so, I think the proper title of this thread should be "why don't I buy any piano music recordings?"

[some guy]

Huh? You "occasionally get a string sound"? What kind of LP's are you listening too, and what are you listening to them on?

I no longer have a turntable myself. I'm listening to turntablists as recorded on CD. Occasionally one of the LPs these guys are playing (i.e., using as a sound source) will have strings on it, and occasionally that sound will cut through all the other noises, the other instruments/vocals recorded on the vinyl, the scratches, the pops and ticks, and the various actions of the turntablists (like scratching the stylus across the surface of the LP, putting other objects on the platter, sometimes "playing" those other objects with the stylus, generating feedback, playing several LPs on several turntables simultaneously, etc.).

[Ciel_Rouge]

Scarpia: quite right, once I get past Beethoven, Schubert, Chopin and Rach, I get pretty much clueless. Of course there is also Bach and Scarlatti played on the piano, but they are not true piano pieces - sort of going beyond harpsichord to a "future piano". Thanks all for the composer recommendations, I sort of went through such lists on Wiki but pointers from actual people seem a bit more of value to me than automatic lists from Wiki, without any prioritizing or personal insight.

[some guy]

Or even early sixties. (Cage's Cartridge Music is from 1960.) Or even earlier. (The first "turntable concert" was in 1930, presented by Paul Hindemith and Ernst Krenek. It's possible that Cage attended that concert, as he was in Europe that year, travelling around, soaking things up. His own Imaginary Landscape #1 dates from 1939.)

Christian Marclay and hip hop started at almost the same time in the seventies, and apparently independently of each other. (Marclay was interested in punk.) Once Marclay got going--I saw him live in L.A. in '82--what one might turn "classical" or perhaps "non-pop" turntablism really took off. Now there are turntablists all over the world, Martin Tétreault from Canada, eRikm from France, Ignaz Schick from Germany, Martin Ng from Australia, Otomo from Japan, just for starters.

They often, though not always, play in conjunction with live electronics, circuitry, laptops, CD players, cassette decks....

As for producing anything truly great, well "greatness" is a philosophical issue, and one I've come increasingly to see as impertinent. That is, the concept is not one that I find useful. It certainly doesn't entire [enter, this should be enter, here] into how I enjoy music. I can certainly rank things, but I find it more practical to rank like with like. Pieces of Bach with each other, say, or even Bach with Vivaldi and Telemann and the like. Or turntablists, with, very tentatively, people like Oren Amabarchi ranking lower than Philip Jeck. But even there, I'm probably just revealing something about me and what I know than I'm saying anything useful about either Oren or Philip.... And ranking for me is not terribly interesting. If I do it, it's usually to separate out the more progressive from the less progressive. Or how an artist challenges me, makes me question my listening skills or my prejudices. The ones who do that more, interest me more. I suppose that's a ranking, of sorts.

This is far far away from pianos, though (the true topic of this string thread!!), so here's a couple more guys much associated with piano, Walter Marchetti and Ross Bolleter. The former's an Italian composer interested in exploring not only the sounds a piano can make but the whole range of preconceptions about pianos that listeners bring to the table. The latter's an Australian who's made a career out of collecting and performing on ruined pianos. Let time and neglect (someone else's, not Ross's!) prepare your pianos for you. Oh, and there's also the recently deceased Radulescu, who tips pianos on their sides (and calls them "sound icons") so the harp is easier to get at.

[Maciek]

Let time and neglect (someone else's, not Ross's!) prepare your pianos for you.

How odd that I, who have never heard of Ross Bolleter, should be such an adept practitioner of his method! (Indeed, the neglect is not his, it is mine! )

[Cristofori]

I no longer have a turntable myself. I'm listening to turntablists as recorded on CD. Occasionally one of the LPs these guys are playing (i.e., using as a sound source) will have strings on it, and occasionally that sound will cut through all the other noises, the other instruments/vocals recorded on the vinyl, the scratches, the pops and ticks, and the various actions of the turntablists (like scratching the stylus across the surface of the LP, putting other objects on the platter, sometimes "playing" those other objects with the stylus, generating feedback, playing several LPs on several turntables simultaneously, etc.).

Sorry, I wasn't sure what you were saying (and I still sort of don't), but I now know you were not talking about regular LP's! 

As far as the lack of representation of piano goes, I think that is a non-issue. I'm not sure why the OP feels that this is so, but except for in full blown symphonic music, the piano is all over the place. Probably second only to strings.

Also, many composers get their ideas first and write their music on the piano. About the only major composer I know of that didn't seem to care much for the piano was Sibelius, but even he wrote music for the instrument.

[Ciel_Rouge]

As the OP I have to clarify something - what I really meant was SOLO piano. I am aware that it is rather ubiquitous in chamber and there is a significant number of piano concerti but what I am really after right now are SOLO piano pieces.

Cristofori, how about Tchaikovsky? His Seasons are pretty much all there is to his solo piano music and sure, he wrote 3 piano concerti but I still think his symphonic output seems much more prominent overall. On the other extreme, Chopin wrote only for piano, with some piano and cello being a rare exception. And what I am really having trouble with, is getting beyond Chopin in my quest for really outstanding and emotional pieces.

Sure there is lots of weird "random sound" kind of 20th century music with mutilated pianos and the like, but what I am really looking for is something comparable to Chopin's pieces in terms of emotionality, tunefulness and recognizability. I listened to all of Beethoven's piano sonatas as well as some Schubert but I am still looking for more.

Maybe there is a bit of a string dominance after all - there are very few really virtuosic performers for the piano while in a symphonic orchestra it is rather a combined effort of many performers and many instruments. And hence my impression that solo piano is still a bit under-represented in terms of the number of good recordings and especially live performances - I guess it is much easier to  find a symphonic concert to attend than to find a piano recital.

[some guy]

Sure there is lots of weird "random sound" kind of 20th century music with mutilated pianos and the like

I don't want to alarm you, Ciel, but it IS 2010.

[Ciel_Rouge]

some guy: it is indeed 2010 but that does not mean that I have to predominantly listen to music from the last 100 years - contrary to the 19th century, in the 21st century we have something called a recording and we are able to listen to anything composed in any time period and are not limited to the most recent ones I do enjoy a little from 20th century Messiaen, Stravinsky etc. but random sounds do not do much for me - of course one could enjoy that, or even learn to find value in everyday noises like cars and elevators, but then why would we need music that is composed at all? Therefore, I prefer Kilar to Stockhausen and I guess that is my personal prefernce ;-)

[jochanaan]

Ciel, is there a college or university near you?  If so, I can imagine that you could attend any number of solo piano recitals there--for free.

As a woodwind player, I have sometimes regretted the lack of truly significant wind music from the 19th century.  String quartets have Beethoven; we have Danzi and Reicha (which, while charming, aren't nearly as deep or challenging).  Orchestras have any number of great symphonies and other music; wind groups have a lovely overture by Mendelssohn and the Dvorak Serenade, and that's about it unless you like Sousa.  But the "deficiency" is definitely remedied by the time you get to the mid-20th century, with symphonies for band by Hindemith, Persichetti, Hovhaness and others, plus a magnificent piece for band by Schoenberg that isn't even atonal!