James Levine

[amw]

Indeed.  But the practical acceptance of the latter - consuming artistic output - especially in the context of currently active artists, may contribute to more immoral or criminal behavior by currently active artists.

An individual consumer buying or not buying a recording by James Levine is not going to make much of a difference. I think it is absolutely fair for people to bring immoral acts by artists to light and put pressure on management companies/labels/organisations/etc to disaffiliate, and on the artist himself to resign/apologise/cooperate with criminal prosecution, whilst also believing that his recording of Mahler's 2nd Symphony is a superlative example of its kind, whilst also understanding the drain of artistic potential caused by children he abused abandoning/not pursuing careers in classical music because of the trauma he put them through. (note that I do not actually know if his Mahler 2 is any good this is just an example)

I mean that's something we do a lot of.... enjoying the music of Britten whilst recognising that there might also have been great music by other people had Britten not been a sexual predator of musically talented boys (even if his behaviour did not meet criminal standards of sexual abuse) who subsequently felt traumatised and shut out of the musical establishment, etc.

(See also: the Yehudi Menuhin School, the Juilliard School, and numerous other music academies where gifted students are or were subject to sexual abuse.)

[Todd]

An individual consumer buying or not buying a recording by James Levine is not going to make much of a difference.

It is true in the case of classical recordings, concert tickets, movie tickets and other methods of art consumption that rely on selling many units that individual purchases do not matter, but it is not true in other cases (eg, paintings, sculptures, commissioned works), hence the more general nature of my statement.  It is perfectly fine for people to bring immoral and illegal acts to light, bring pressure, and so forth.  For some people that is important; for others, it is not.

[Mahlerian]

In any case damnatio memoriae never works. If you appreciate irony, check out the stories detailed here. All these people have been officially erased from history, yet they are remembered, in some cases centuries later:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damnatio_memoriae

BTW, the only composer I can think of who was fired for sexual harassment was Anton Bruckner. Apparently he addressed one of his teenage female students "in an inappropriately intimate manner" (or something along those lines) and was fired from his teaching position for that. He had a thing for teenage girls; that was well known. Doesn't stop me from enjoying any of his music.

I don't remember that Bruckner was fired from his position, though I'm aware of his obsession with the virginity of potential mates (which is certainly creepy).

The one composer I can think of who was fired for sexual misconduct is Gombert, and they tried to erase him from the records too.

(See also: the Yehudi Menuhin School, the Juilliard School, and numerous other music academies where gifted students are or were subject to sexual abuse.)

Most recently, a professor from the Cincinnati College Conservatory of Music was ousted.  I know someone who goes there, so that hits close.

[Karl Henning]

The Met has suspended Jimmy:

Met Opera Suspends James Levine After New Sexual Abuse Accusations https://nyti.ms/2BDJfTr

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[amw]

It is true in the case of classical recordings, concert tickets, movie tickets and other methods of art consumption that rely on selling many units that individual purchases do not matter, but it is not true in other cases (eg, paintings, sculptures, commissioned works), hence the more general nature of my statement.  It is perfectly fine for people to bring immoral and illegal acts to light, bring pressure, and so forth.  For some people that is important; for others, it is not.

Yes, that is true. I think in cases where financial pressure can be applied to the artist, it is more ethical to do so, and less ethical to continue financially supporting him. That's why putting pressure on the organisations that do have that kind of leverage (eg the Met) is important.

(Also yes, Bruckner was a creep. He constantly made passes at underage girls and apparently sometimes answered the door naked when expecting female company, at least according to legend. In his lifetime and afterwards people attributed his behaviour to him being a "country bumpkin" who didn't understand appropriate etiquette, à la Roy Moore, but nowadays we would consider it sexual harassment, à la Roy Moore.)

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I don't remember that Bruckner was fired from his position, though I'm aware of his obsession with the virginity of potential mates (which is certainly creepy).

Hmm, I don't know enough to say if "obsession" is the right word, but a serious Catholic in a seriously Catholic society, who wanted to stay respectable, would certainly take "the virginity of potential mates" seriously.

But it's kind of a moot point since he never got married anyway. He did have a bagful of neuroses, including "counting disease" (the compulsion to count various random things, such as steps on a staircase or leaves on a tree), and the creepiest thing of all, his interest in exhuming and viewing dead bodies. Yet this weird bumpkin produced majestic "cathedrals in sound" like no other ("what a piece of work is man!" as Hamlet says).

Meanwhile, I see our fine local establishment, the Deer Path Inn, is being mentioned in the papers as the place where Levine did the alleged molestation. Don't let that put you off, they do a fine all-inclusive champagne brunch for $50:

http://thedeerpathinn.com/

[bwv 1080]

Feldman was another with sexual misconduct albeit it came out posthumously when Bunita Marcos revealed his abuse. 

Agree the art can be separated from the individual character but for living artists there should be consequences.  If Levine was in good health when this came out it would be totally appropriate for him to suffer consequences to his career going forward while not diminishing the value of past contributions.  Philip Picket being an example in this regard

[LKB]

As someone has already suggested, merging this thread with http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,16111.20.html seems appropriate.

Q, feel free if you like. 

I'll probably have more OT observations during the coming week. Right now I'm too disgusted for anything cogent.

,

LKB

[amw]

I have reservations about settlements being accompanied by NDAs. NDAs are typically used as a tool of the powerful to silence the less powerful (not that one can't foresee the potential for them to be useful, in circumstances that are more equitable).

I think a lot of women are just really tired of living in this culture where we're treated like objects and that's why this cultural moment has managed to survive for so long (and bring tangential benefits to young boys/men who have also been treated like objects, usually by the same people) but the balance of power has not shifted in any meaningful way and the backlash is already starting. Most likely, when Roy Moore is elected US Senator in a few weeks' time, that will be when the backlash begins in earnest starting from the top down as Democrats mount defences of their own members of Congress accused of sexual harassment/assault—instead of what they're doing now which is publicly saying they should resign but not otherwise putting any pressure on them—and men in media will retreat to the safer position of "well, we have to support this accused sexual harasser because the alternative is a Republican/Democrat" and start questioning the accounts of women who accuse someone on their "side" of harassment and etc. So I do think we have a couple more weeks to get everything out there but it's clearly not going anywhere. (President Trump allegedly raped a teenaged girl and sexually assaulted numerous other women and is not going anywhere after all, especially now that he got some corporate tax cuts passed.)

[Mandryka]

I only skimmed the news so this could be wrong,

The man who's complained to the police about Levine, I read somewhere that Levine gave him - he accepted - 50 000 USD. It sounds like the two were in some some sort of relationship for a long time. What I'm getting at is that it wasn't like a rape, it was more like an exchange. The man was 15 at the time of the first incident, when, he said, Levine held his hand sensually. What is the age of concent in the US? Here it's 16 - for sex, not for sensual hand holding.

Was the person damaged by his experiences with Levine? I hadn't read that.

(A composer who is famous for his sexual abuse is Nicolas Gombert.)

[amw]

I believe the $50,000 was a settlement?

"The next morning I was late to rehearsal," said Mr. Brown [....] "I was in a complete daze. Whatever happens when you get abused had happened, and it wasn't just sexual."

At their next meeting, Mr. Brown said, he told Mr. Levine that he would not repeat the sexual behavior, and asked if they could continue to make music as they had before.

"And he answered no," Mr. Brown said, adding that Mr. Levine hardly looked at him for the rest of the summer, even while conducting him. "It was a terrible, terrible summer."

[...]

At one point in Cleveland, where he moved in 1969 to study at the Cleveland Institute of Music, he said that Mr. Levine encouraged the members of the group to put on blindfolds and masturbate partners they could not see. They did, Mr. Lestock said.

"This was the extent to which he had control," Mr. Lestock said. Another member of the group, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to guard his privacy, said that he had also taken part in a blindfolded masturbation session.

[...]

"I was vulnerable," said Mr. Pai, who is 48. "I was under this man's sway, I saw him as a safe, protective person, he took advantage of me, he abused me and it has really messed me up." He said that the relationship continued for years and that his feelings were complicated: He shared a copy of a Western Union Mailgram he had sent to Mr. Levine at the Salzburg Festival in 1988 that contained the postscript "P.S. I love you." But Mr. Pai came to realize that, in those early years, he had been too young to give consent.

So, yes. There are three accusers so far, but based on what's described in the article, likely other victims who haven't come forward yet.

[Mandryka]

I believe the $50,000 was a settlement?

So, yes. There are three accusers so far, but based on what's described in the article, likely other victims who haven't come forward yet.

Thanks I hadn't seen that.

[Mahlerian]

I only skimmed the news so this could be wrong,

The man who's complained to the police about Levine, I read somewhere that Levine gave him - he accepted - 50 000 USD. It sounds like the two were in some some sort of relationship for a long time. What I'm getting at is that it wasn't like a rape, it was more like an exchange. The man was 15 at the time of the first incident, when, he said, Levine held his hand sensually. What is the age of concent in the US? Here it's 16 - for sex, not for sensual hand holding.

It is 16 here as well (in most places), but legally a person under the age of 18, being a minor, cannot give consent to sexual interaction with an adult more than a few years older.  It is considered "statutory rape," and is a crime regardless of whether the minor expressed consent verbally.

Was the person damaged by his experiences with Levine? I hadn't read that.

He says that he didn't realize it at the time, but he felt broken and suffered emotionally later on as a result.

[Mandryka]

It is 16 here as well (in most places), but legally a person under the age of 18, being a minor, cannot give consent to sexual interaction with an adult more than a few years older.  It is considered "statutory rape," and is a crime regardless of whether the minor expressed consent verbally.

Ah, I've never come across this before, or I don't remember rather, I wonder if it's the case in the UK too. So when two people marry in the US, one can't be (eg) 16 and the other 32? (Here a 16 year old can marry, in Scotland the parents aren't involved - this is being reviewed now I think,)

[Mahlerian]

Ah, I've never come across this before, or I don't remember rather, I wonder if it's the case in the UK too. So when two people marry in the US, one can't be (eg) 16 and the other 32?

Yes.  That would be illegal everywhere in the US.  The younger partner would have to be at least 18 to even participate in a relationship legally.

I should say that the main story here is not statutory rape, though, but coercion and sexual harassment/abuse.

[Parsifal]

It is 16 here as well (in most places), but legally a person under the age of 18, being a minor, cannot give consent to sexual interaction with an adult more than a few years older.  It is considered "statutory rape," and is a crime regardless of whether the minor expressed consent verbally.

I do not think that is correct. By definition the age of consent is the age at which a person is competent to consent to sexual intercourse. In the U.S. this is set at the state level and varies between 16 and 18 in the various states. If the age of consent is 16 in a jurisdiction statutory rape applies to a person less than 16. There can be additional statutes which result in increased penalties at different age cutoffs below the age of consent. There can also be provisions which mitigate the violation if the age difference between the participants is small even if one person is below the age of consent.

In Illinois the age of consent is 17, so the 16 year old could not consent, although the statues specify "penetration" as the illegal act. Sexual touching may not be meet the definition of rape in Illinois, although there may be other statues covering 'sodomy.'

However, a 40 year old man who uses his status as a teacher, mentor and as a world famous conductor to pressure 16 year olds into sex has certainly violated the terms of his employment and would be subject to unconditional and immediate dismissal, even if the act could not be prosecuted in a criminal court.

[Mahlerian]

I do not think that is correct. By definition the age of consent is the age at which a person is competent to consent to sexual intercourse. In the U.S. this is set at the state level and varies between 16 and 18 in the various states. If the age of consent is 16 in a jurisdiction statutory rape applies to a person less than 16. There can be additional statutes which result in increased penalties at different age cutoffs below the age of consent. There can also be provisions which mitigate the violation if the age difference between the participants is small even if one person is below the age of consent.

You are correct.  I was wrong, and I apologize.

However, a 40 year old man who uses his status as a teacher, mentor and as a world famous conductor to pressure 16 year olds into sex has certainly violated the terms of his employment and would be subject to unconditional and immediate dismissal, even if the act could not be prosecuted in a criminal court.

Right.

[Parsifal]

You are correct.  I was wrong, and I apologize.

No need to apologize being in error. It happens to everyone. No everyone is willing to admit it, however.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

I only skimmed the news so this could be wrong,

The man who's complained to the police about Levine, I read somewhere that Levine gave him - he accepted - 50 000 USD. It sounds like the two were in some some sort of relationship for a long time. What I'm getting at is that it wasn't like a rape, it was more like an exchange. The man was 15 at the time of the first incident, when, he said, Levine held his hand sensually. What is the age of concent in the US? Here it's 16 - for sex, not for sensual hand holding.

Was the person damaged by his experiences with Levine? I hadn't read that.

(A composer who is famous for his sexual abuse is Nicolas Gombert.)

I feel the same way, actually. Or similarish. If we imagined this as barter: Limited petting for 50k+ and a recommendation from James Levine, we could easily imagine this taking place as a voluntary exchange of goods and services. But in inter-personal relationships and with vast power-disequilibriums, it's rarely as clean cut of course. The thing's that behind this case, much more can be suspected with Levine. On the other hand, isn't it possible for an older person to behave innocently and wrongly at the same time, with minors? I'm thinking of Michael Jackson whom, judging from very much afar, of course, I've never seen as a child devouring monster but rather a case of sexual-social retardation; stuck at a child-like level... or seeking refuge in being stuck at that level. But I am probably muddying the waters.

Meanwhile I'm positively surprised that for once my article, with its nowadays controversial take of preaching ambiguity rather than black & white, has received far more positive than negative responses... all awhile I'm being grilled on Twitter for not condemning "that monster" Mariss Jansons sufficiently. 

Now it will come to the surprise of no one if tiny skeletons come tumbling out of James Levine's closet like candy from a piñata.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/12/03/the-grand-moral-reckoning-classical-edition-james-levine-in-the-soup/#22b1e8c21d5b

[vandermolen]

I'd been aware of these rumours for many years as well.