Mendelssohn vs. Schoenberg

[jochanaan]

First some people were upset that I didn't give my reason as to why I consider Mendelssohn greater then Schoenberg.
Now that I gave the reason, some people are still upset and try to personalize the discussion with insults.
Where does it end?

Why can't we speak here normally like adults, this is music and we are all musicians or music listeners here that love music dearly, why the attacks? why the insults?


I don't get it.

Well, as for the "name-calling," I too think some of the criticism towards you might have been handled better.  But your reasoning is demonstrably false.

Schoenberg was not writing just for an "intellectual minority."  He said himself that he expected "the postman on the street" to whistle his melodies.  Now probably he was being over-optimistic on this point, but he was definitely not writing only as an intellectual exercise.  Along with his 12-tone methods he also included classical forms such as the symphony and variations, and in his music are waltzes and other dances, considerable drama, and musical phrases shaped for both grace and emotional impact.

If you don't believe me, I challenge you to listen to one of his last compositions, "A Survivor from Warsaw."  Yes, its harmonies are uncompromising and harsh--perfectly suited to the subject and the sung-spoken text.  There is not just "intellectual material" but a huge emotional wallop.  If you can listen to that and still think he wrote only for dry intellectuals, then I'll leave you to your opinion.

...My imagination is not good enough to imagine ANYONE, ANYWHERE on Planet Earth not getting violent ill upon hearing the non-music of Schoenberg.  Actually enjoying Schoenberg is just too absurd a concept to contemplate.  You guys have got to be kidding me, surely. 

No.  No, we're not kidding.  Some of us actually DO enjoy it; more, some of us are deeply moved by it.  If your imagination can't wrap itself around this concept, that's okay; but you're not us, nor can you see inside our heads or hearts, so you cannot deny our assertions.  But why is it so hard to accept that some of us, even some non-intellectuals, may actually LIKE Schoenberg's music?!

[Saul]

I think he was given his walking papers on That Other Board, and so he comes here to regale us with his wit and wisdom, as well as leaving his little droppings on the Composers' Board.

What a vicious attack, do you know the facts why I was Banned on CMG? or you just swallowed what some people have fed you behind my back.
This is outrageous.

Why I was banned?

Because there just like here, there is a majority of members who are liberals who give themselves the 'freedom' to speak their mind as they see fit, perfectly without any problems and limitations.

Yet when I spoke my mind freely, they have bombarded Lance and Corlyss with complaints to shut me out, and one member there named Brendan from Australia, openly stated that he did so, and that he was willing to sacrifice himself just to shut me down.

I have the emails and the discussion of what has happened and I can provide you with them, if you want to, so that you can see the truth for yourself.

Brendan with his insistence to shut me down and ban me, got himself banned too, but I guess for him it was worth it.. He was the first 'suicide internet bomber' willing to sacrifice himself just to ban me, because he couldn't stand equal opportunity for all.

And Corlyss, you know the CO- Owner of CMG was literally FORCED by Lance to ban me from there because the Liberals wouldn't let go...

If you go to Chalkie, there who was a temporary moderator because Corlyss was sick at the time, she is currently recovering from an arm injury, he had written to me that He Was Shocked that I was banned and that Corlyss was forced to do so by Lance.

Corlyss, cant type because of her arm problem, so the libs took advantage of that and sent who knows how many emails to Lance, and Lance had no other choice but to FORCE Corlyss to ban me.

Such Drama, yet this is what had happened. I didn't discuss this here, and I didn't want to discuss it, but since you brought it up, you should at least know the truth.

[Saul]

This is a fair & perfectly legitimate perspective.

Thank you, Sir.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

This is a fair & perfectly legitimate perspective.

Really? Have you asked Saul what he thinks of Stockhausen?

[Dancing Divertimentian]

And all many people here are doing is hounding him for it. He made his point, leave it be ... and he doesn't have to back up his opinion with a technical dissertation and such, gimme a break ...

Hitler had an opinion, too. Should we just turn a blind eye to any idea no matter how crazy??

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Oh yea .. what Saul is saying here, his musical preferences & such is really on par with that. Get a clue please.

That's not the point. Is it necessary to hold your hand through EVERY discussion?

...oh, wait...

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Why? What difference does it make?

Are you afraid to ask him?

[Brian]

This is a fair & perfectly legitimate perspective.

To my surprise, I agree. It really is.

Hitler had an opinion, too. Should we just turn a blind eye to any idea no matter how crazy??

If you're going to discredit any opinion Hitler had just because Hitler had it, there goes playing Bruckner's Seventh at my funeral.

[Saul]

Thank you James, I really don't know the exact problem...

But, you know I was politely asked a few months ago by the Moderators here to refrain from talking about religion. And I have made a candid decision to respect that, and since I took upon myself this pledge, I have not broken it.

I'm speaking about music with others, and the insults still don't stop.

There has to be another reason, cause I thankfully see, that a number of people here understand that I am not the problem here, and I am confident that some moderatos have come to this conclusion to.

Why people are attacking me?

I'm a musician, and a very good human being, and I don't insult people here personally, or curse them, or attack them.

Why then they treat me this way?

I believe the reason is that some people are not willing to let  a different point of view that contradicts their opinions have any solid stance here on the site.

But why?

Shouldn't the site be open to all opinions?

I never understood this.

Again, thanks for your support.

Best,

Saul

[Teresa]

Quickly Teresa, who is your desert island composer?  Mozart or Schoenberg?  Those are your only two options.

Easy answer: NEITHER, complete silence is preferred to either option.

I will even anticipate your next question: If I was held a gunpoint and told I would have to listen to either Mozart or Schoenberg for the next 24 hours or die.   I would tell my captures to pull the trigger as after just 30 minutes with either composer I would be ready to do it myself. 

[Scarpia]

Thank you James, I really don't know the exact problem...

But, you know I was politely asked a few months ago by the Moderators here to refrain from talking about religion. And I have made a candid decision to respect that, and since I took upon myself this pledge, I have not broken it.

I'm speaking about music with others, and the insults still don't stop.

There has to be another reason, cause I thankfully see, that a number of people here understand that I am not the problem here, and I am confident that some moderatos have come to this conclusion to.

Why people are attacking me?

I'm a musician, and a very good human being, and I don't insult people here personally, or curse them, or attack them.

Why then they treat me this way?

I believe the reason is that some people are not willing to let  a different point of view that contradicts their opinions have any solid stance here on the site.

But why?

Shouldn't the site be open to all opinions?

I never understood this.

The reason is very simple.  99% of posters on this site are able to recognize that a composer may be "great" even if they personally do not enjoy the music of that composer.   You, apparently, are not capable of this.  You are narcissistic enough to believe that since you find music of Schoenberg ugly, then his music has no intrinsic value and that people who claim to enjoy his music are deluding themselves or maintaining a pretense of enjoying the music to appear intellectual.  This is the gist of what you have maintained on this thread.  Frankly, this is insulting, and you can expect to be treated with hostility as long as you maintain this attitude.

You may think you have escaped by dropping in a few "in my opinions." However, it is still offensive to say "in my opinion Schoenberg's music is ugly and people who claim to like his music are pretending to be intellectual."   If you had any sense you would realize that these statements are insulting to anyone on this board who actually enjoys the music of Schoenberg, and that the hostility you have experienced is simply a response to the implicit or explicit insults that are in almost every post you make here.

Your claim that you are ostracized for having "a different point of view" is absurd.  If you look at the "what are you listening to" thread you will see that Schoenberg turns up fairly infrequently compared to other composer.  I can assume that most people on this board don't list Schoenberg's works among their favorites or most frequently listened to.  But, unlike you, these people do not feel a need to ridicule people who do enjoy Schoenberg and they do not find it a source of conflict.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

If you're going to discredit any opinion Hitler had just because Hitler had it, there goes playing Bruckner's Seventh at my funeral.

?

Who said anything about discrediting EVERY opinion Hitler had?

But that ONE certain opinion of his caused an awful lot of pain, did it not? Wouldn't it have been appropriate to speak out against this opinion at every opportunity (and with extreme vigor) given the chance?

To sweep contentious issues under the rug by simply using "relativism" (as in, my opinion is okay and you just better get used to it) is to make a mockery of logic. It's a crutch. It's a sham.

No matter how you slice it not every opinion is created equal and it really IS okay so speak out in opposition to a contentious opinion, ESPECIALLY when the opinion-maker (the mouthpiece) is standing on a soapbox trumpeting his/her opinions at resounding volumes.

I mean, if no one's allowed to voice a cogent COUNTER-OPINION what's left? It will reduce society to a circus of mouthpieces running all over the place spitting out anything and everything in the name of "opinion"!! YIKES!!!

Talk about confusion!

Note how NONE of these trolls on this board directly answer a SINGLE question put to them. They use smokescreens and diversion tactics to avoid anything that might resemble confrontation. And confrontation in this instance isn't meant to imply aggression. For instance, Luke is the very OPPOSITE of aggressive and yet his pointed and apposite queries are ignored at every turn. Doesn't this bother you?

If it doesn't, it should.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Shouldn't the site be open to all opinions?

And there it is. Relativism at work.

Opinions are one thing, Saul. MAKING A CASE for your opinions is quite another.

If it's your sincerest desire "to be heard" and carry your golden message to all corners of the world then it really IS necessary to provide more than an endless string of platitudes to make your case. And make no mistake, it really IS ok if we demand more in the way of substance! YOU'RE the one trying to persuade US!!

You of course don't understand this at all but it's something that's BASIC if you want to be taken seriously (as opposed to being seen as simply a crackpot).

[Saul]

The reason is very simple.  99% of posters on this site are able to recognize that a composer may be "great" even if they personally do not enjoy the music of that composer.   You, apparently, are not capable of this.  You are narcissistic enough to believe that since you find music of Schoenberg ugly, then his music has no intrinsic value and that people who claim to enjoy his music are deluding themselves or maintaining a pretense of enjoying the music to appear intellectual.  This is the gist of what you have maintained on this thread.  Frankly, this is insulting, and you can expect to be treated with hostility as long as you maintain this attitude.

You may think you have escaped by dropping in a few "in my opinions." However, it is still offensive to say "in my opinion Schoenberg's music is ugly and people who claim to like his music are pretending to be intellectual."   If you had any sense you would realize that these statements are insulting to anyone on this board who actually enjoys the music of Schoenberg, and that the hostility you have experienced is simply a response to the implicit or explicit insults that are in almost every post you make here.

Your claim that you are ostracized for having "a different point of view" is absurd.  If you look at the "what are you listening to" thread you will see that Schoenberg turns up fairly infrequently compared to other composer.  I can assume that most people on this board don't list Schoenberg's works among their favorites or most frequently listened to.  But, unlike you, these people do not feel a need to ridicule people who do enjoy Schoenberg and they do not find it a source of conflict.

My opinion on Schoenberg is my own personal thing, and I'm entitled to it, as long as I don't pick on one individual and attack him and insult him just because he listens to him, there is no reason to insult me.

Where did  I personally insulted someone here by name just because he or she choose to listen to him?

And if my opinion is 'insulting' then there is no room here for a different point of view.

There is no reason to call me names and call me a troll and attack my dignity because I have certain opinions on Schoenberg, no reason whatsoever.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

What?!?

Did I stutter?

[Dancing Divertimentian]

And if my opinion is 'insulting' then there is no room here for a different point of view.

It's not "opinion" when it's all based on innuendo, smokescreens, vanity, hearsay, and just plain ignorance.

For instance, your assertion that Schoenberg only wrote for "the few intellectuals" is totally false. For myself, I'm simply "street folk" and I REALLY ENJOY Schoenberg.

So your "opinion" isn't opinion at all. All you've done is concoct something to give yourself "credibility". And then you have the nerve start whining whenever someone disagrees with YOU!!!

Oh, the irony....

[Scarpia]

There is no reason to call me names and call me a troll and attack my dignity because I have certain opinions on Schoenberg, no reason whatsoever.

You are met with hostility not because you ridicule Schoenberg's music, but because you ridicule people who enjoy Schoenberg's music.   You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to be surprised that people react the way they do.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

yea your brain is farting big time, if you want his view on another composer ask him then? lol

As usual...ask a troll a direct question, get a non-answer.

[Teresa]

Who said anything about discrediting EVERY opinion Hitler had?

Hitler was a monster but I do agree to some degree with his indictment of Entartete Kunst or Degenerate art of which Arnold Schoenberg was one of the prime targets of the Nazis because he was not only a Jew but his music was degenerate, ugly and atonal.  The Nazis targeted all Jews even if their music was tonal, thus Felix Mendelssohn and other tonal Jewish composers were also banded as Entartete Musik.

Degenerate Art

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Hitler was a monster but I do agree to some degree with his indictment of Entartete Kunst or Degenerate art of which Arnold Schoenberg was one of the prime targets of the Nazis because he was not only a Jew but his music was degenerate, ugly and atonal.

Degenerate Art

WHAT??!!???

So here it is, folks. The real Teresa (and Saul, most likely) exposed. Zealots posing as the "defenders of all goodness". Out to save us from the evils of (pick your poison)...

Run, folks, run....

The Nazis targeted all Jews even if their music was tonal, thus Felix Mendelssohn and other tonal Jewish composers were also banded as Entartete Musik.

...and tacking on this little ditty does zero towards reestablishing your credibility.