Hot topics

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I see. But while Saul is naturally all too happy to take a bow, I cannot praise this post quite as highly. Saul's main point is to tell Teresa not to bother trying to change people's minds. However, if you look at the metaphor he chooses, it's obvious he considers Schoenberg and Co. the musical equivalent of junk food. And that judgmental attitude is what some of you are standing up and applauding.

His target audience, Brian, is not only Teresa but the entire readership of this forum. Or said otherwise, it is not unusual in rhetoric to directly address one individual while indirectly speaking to any number of others who are also listening in. And having made that choice of words (where he could have created a metaphor that was less pejorative), he bears responsibility for them.

And though I grant that at times Saul sounds conciliatory --

- there is still no question that he considers this music, which many here respond to with great enthusiasm, to be inferior stuff:

Junk food, that is.

Absolutely QFT.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

The only aspect of Teresa's comments that has bothered me is her view that certain types of music should be banned.  This view is also rather odd in light of the many times she has argued for "individual freedom".

You must've missed the last page of the "Schoenberg vs. Mendy" thread. It's a frightful sight.

[Mirror Image]

I've heard a bit of Creston that I liked, and love Copland. Curious if you have any thoughts on Randall Thompson, whose Second Symphony I've heard courtesy Lenny B. and which to me is a very compelling bit of work.

Yes, Randall Thompson's Symphony No. 2 is a great work! I only own one performance and it's the Lenny performance. That recording is actually all around excellent having Schuman and Diamond on it as well. There was a set on Koch with James Sedares of Thompson's symphonies that is now out-of-print that I would have liked to own.

I have only heard one work by Thompson so I can't comment other than to say it was very enjoyable. I would like to hear more of his music.

[Brian]

Yes, Randall Thompson's Symphony No. 2 is a great work! I only own one performance and it's the Lenny performance. That recording is actually all around excellent having Schuman and Diamond on it as well. There was a set on Koch with James Sedares of Thompson's symphonies that is now out-of-print that I would have liked to own.

I have only heard one work by Thompson so I can't comment other than to say it was very enjoyable. I would like to hear more of his music.

Seems like we're in exactly the same place then. That's the only work/recording of him I've heard and it's terrific. Naxos have licensed quite a few old Koch recordings, let's hope they get around to those...

[Teresa]

Like was mentioned already even other American composers like Barber, Piston, Ives, Copland, Diamond, Creston, Schuman, Thomson, etc. wrote music that used Schoenbergian dissonances. 

I can hear it in Ives, Creston and Schuman, I don't like those.

I am not totally against dissonances, I am against ugly atonal music.  Dissonances when used properly can create excitement.  Good example is in the very melodic and tuneful works of Barber.

I have only one work by Walter Piston The Incredible Flutist and it most definitely is not atonal. 

I own 14 compositions by Aaron Copland and the only atonal work I have ever heard by him is Statements for Orchestra and I don't like that one and it was purged from my collection.  Likewise I have three works by Virgil Thomson and even though there is some dissonance they are very tonal, and very folksy with banjo included in the orchestra.  I love banjo in classical music but it is so rare.   

[Mirror Image]

Seems like we're in exactly the same place then. That's the only work/recording of him I've heard and it's terrific. Naxos have licensed quite a few old Koch recordings, let's hope they get around to those...

I've recently been looking for rare out-of-print Koch recordings specifically with James Sedares and the New Zealand Symphony and have found a good many used in like-new condition on Amazon. As a collector, I always try and to buying the originals before I make a purchase of a reissue.

I do wish Gerard Schwarz finished his cycle of Diamond symphonies. I love Diamond's music. Besides the Lenny performance, have you heard any of Schwarz's Diamond recordings?

[Mirror Image]

I can hear it in Ives, Creston and Schuman, I don't like those.

I am not totally against dissonances, I am against ugly atonal music.  Dissonances when used properly can create excitement.  Good example is in the very melodic and tuneful works of Barber.

I have only one work by Walter Piston The Incredible Flutist and it most definitely is not atonal. 

I own 14 compositions by Aaron Copland and the only atonal work I have ever heard by him is Statements for Orchestra and I don't like that one and it was purged from my collection.  Likewise I have three works by Virgil Thomson and even though there is some dissonance they are very tonal, and very folksy with banjo included in the orchestra.  I love banjo in classical music but it is so rare.   

There is good atonal music and there is bad. Have you heard Alwyn's Symphony No. 3? You would never know this is a 12-tone work because he used the technique melodically. Dallapiccola is another composer who wrote lyrical serial works. Have you heard any of these composer's music?

[jochanaan]

Not only have I responded to every single argument...

Um, no, you haven't; you haven't responded to any of my challenges...

[Luke]

...I don't like that one and it was purged from my collection...

Dontcha just love that word 'purged'? Such quaintly Stalinist/Maoist overtones. A word round which all freedom-lovers like Teresa can unite.

Honestly, you go to sleep for 4 measly hours and the place explodes....! (I slept with the complete works of Webern on loop in the background, don't ask me why, but I feel very refreshed this morning!)

Teresa's posts on this thread are the nuttiest, scariest, most historically/musically unaware, angriest, ugliest, most repellent thing I've ever read here, and if you think about it, that really takes a hell of a lot of doing. That's all I'm going to say. Do continue. I'm going to listen to the Webern Symphony to calm my nerves and remind me what lucidity and balance is all about.

[Scarpia]

I'm going to listen to the Webern Symphony to calm my nerves and remind me what lucidity and balance is all about.

Webern?  Everything that gentleman wrote tends to put me to sleep.   

[Luke]

Ha! Even op 6? That was what woke me up bright and early!

[Teresa]

Um, no, you haven't; you haven't responded to any of my challenges...

Please restate and I will find my response for you or offer a new one. 

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Um, no, you haven't; you haven't responded to any of my challenges...

It's a habit of hers, unfortunately. I'm still waiting for a reply to my post #197.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Webern?  Everything that gentleman wrote tends to put me to sleep.   

Ok, THAT'S spam if I ever read it!

[Luke]

Frightening thought that, in a world run by Teresa. listening to this music as I am would be a subversive, illegal activity. I'd have to 'purge' my CD collection of much of the music I love or else....what, precisely?

I guess I'd have to rehang my pictures too. Too much ugly modern stuff. Repellent, degenerate things like



onto the fire with it!!

[Teresa]

It's a habit of hers, unfortunately. I'm still waiting for a reply to my post #197.

I just reread post 197 and there is nothing to respond to as nothing in the Romantic era I have heard compares to the depravity of the vocal works of the avant-garde crowd. 

Check out Schoenberg's Pierrot-Lunaire:
16. Atrocity Through the bald pate of Cassander
As he rends the air with screeches
Bores Pierrot in feigning tender
Fashion with a cranium driller.
He then presses with his finger
Rare tobacco grown in Turkey
In the bald pate of Cassander,
As he rends the air with screeches.
Then screwing a cherry pipe stem
Right in through the polished surface,
Sits at ease and smokes and puffs the
Rare tobacco grown in Turkey
From the bald pate of Cassander.

Nothing from the Romantic Era is so perverted, also deaths etc. in traditional Classical works, teach a morality lesson.  That is why I did not respond to your post. 

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I just reread post 197 and there is nothing to respond to as nothing in the Romantic era I have heard compares to the depravity of the vocal works of the avant-garde crowd. 

Check out Schoenberg's Pierrot-Lunaire:
16. Atrocity Through the bald pate of Cassander
As he rends the air with screeches
Bores Pierrot in feigning tender
Fashion with a cranium driller.
He then presses with his finger
Rare tobacco grown in Turkey
In the bald pate of Cassander,
As he rends the air with screeches.
Then screwing a cherry pipe stem
Right in through the polished surface,
Sits at ease and smokes and puffs the
Rare tobacco grown in Turkey
From the bald pate of Cassander.

Nothing from the Romantic Era is so perverted, also deaths etc. in traditional Classical works, teach a morality lesson.  That is why I did not respond to your post.

Nothing from the romantic period is so perverted??!!??

You don't call the bartering of humans for goods perverted?? You don't call incest perverted?? You don't call adultery perverted?? You don't call suicide perverted?? You don't call the innumerable murders prevalent in ANY NUMBER of operas - no matter what the period - perverted??

With your every word you prove you know nothing about what you preach. The sad fact is that you, yourself, are perverted. Case closed.

But anyway, the point of my post was to point out to you that the ATONALISTS ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR INVENTING CONTROVERSIAL TEXTS!!!!!! To even think of laying something like that at the feet of the Second Viennese school is utterly absurd!!! Not to mention a complete and total double-standard!

Understand this: not everything from your cozy classical and romantic periods is a morality play!! PU-LEASE don't be so blind!!

[Bulldog]

I just reread post 197 and there is nothing to respond to as nothing in the Romantic era I have heard compares to the depravity of the vocal works of the avant-garde crowd. 

Check out Schoenberg's Pierrot-Lunaire:
16. Atrocity Through the bald pate of Cassander
As he rends the air with screeches
Bores Pierrot in feigning tender
Fashion with a cranium driller.
He then presses with his finger
Rare tobacco grown in Turkey
In the bald pate of Cassander,
As he rends the air with screeches.
Then screwing a cherry pipe stem
Right in through the polished surface,
Sits at ease and smokes and puffs the
Rare tobacco grown in Turkey
From the bald pate of Cassander.

Nothing from the Romantic Era is so perverted, also deaths etc. in traditional Classical works, teach a morality lesson. 

Since there is perversion in many or even all humans, it naturally follows that there would be perversion in art.  Wouldn't it be best for you to just keep your distance from art works you find offensive instead of targeting them with a laser beam focus?  It's all part of a healthy life-style.

[Luke]

Nothing from the romantic period is so perverted??!!??

You don't call the bartering of humans for goods perverted?? You don't call incest perverted?? You don't call adultery perverted?? You don't call suicide perverted?? You don't call the innumerable murders prevalent in ANY NUMBER of operas - no matter what the period - perverted??

With your every word you prove you know nothing about what you preach. The sad fact is that you, yourself, are perverted. Case closed.

But anyway, the point of my post was to point out to you that the ATONALISTS ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR INVENTING CONTROVERSIAL TEXTS!!!!!! To even think of laying something like that at the feet of the Second Viennese school is utterly absurd!!! Not to mention a complete and total double-standard!

Understand this: not everything from your cozy classical and romantic periods is a morality play!! PU-LEASE don't be so blind!!

Ah, but you see Teresa has just decided that opera is A Bad Thing too (a page or two ago) so that won't convince her. I doubt all the depravity, cannibalism, eye gouging and so on in Shakespeare will shift her either. Don't let the facts get in the way, after all...

On one thread entitled 'Short Masterpieces' Teresa listed Janacek's Taras Bulba (until M pointed out to her that it has three movements, not the one she said, causing her to delete it from her list). Now there's a work filled with death and torture and execution and infanticide... should we purge it too, Teresa?

EDIT - ....I see she also lists that opera extract The Dance of the Seven Veils, from Salome. Hmmm. I really do sense consistency issues...

[Dancing Divertimentian]

That's a very beautiful painting. Something about it sort of warms the soul. Thanks for sharing.