Mystery Orchestra

[Que]

Clip No.3:

In your face miking! Short but succinct and compelling intro. Compare to 1 which is almost as brief but feels much less taut. Great balances, clear but warm sound. "Von den Hinterweltlern" is perhaps best played here from a technical perspective. Feels like I am listening to accomplished chamber musicians in the initial section, but with a distinctly German portamento. These guys, unlike No.2 did not learn string playing at Juilliard. Woodwinds are nicely prominent in this recording. They barely figure in 1 and blend nicely in 2, but here they really have definition even in the climaxes. "von der grossen Sehnsucht" is very interesting. Compared to 2, the conductor here cooks up a great storm with his quick pace and ferocity, but it is a different storm than 2 which is slower paced initially and gains an inexorable momentum. Both are far more compelling than 1, but so different! At first I thought this could be Maazel/SOBR, as it seemed like the sort of no-nonsense interpretation he would favor. But the chamber-like character of the "Hinterweltler opening should have been obvious. This is the BPO. Based on the in your face miking and the lean but impactive interpretation, I am nearly certain this is Solti on Decca.

O Mensch, precisely the points you mention led me to believe we're dealing with the Concertgebouw Orchestra. Being: some "old fashioned" characteristics of the string playing (thought HvK ironed those out with the BPO?), the prominent woodwinds - and I would add: the dark "mahogany" sound colour, the perfect blending of strings and woodwinds, and the chamber music-like character. Also a moderate quick pace fits in - things are generally not dragged in the Concertgebouw.
I would be surprised if it was Solti. Like you said: it has a no-nonsensical quality, something I wouldn't associate with Solti. And it's not bold enough for Solti IMO.

I forgot to mention that the organ in clip 3 also reminded me of the organ at the Concertgebouw, especially because it fits in with the orchestral playing in a natural way.

Q

[MishaK]

O Mensch, clip 1 sounds much more stretched in the beginning than any other recording of this that I've heard.  While the rest of it isn't slower, the opening was stretched out.  Just listen to the rumble of the gong (or tamtam) and how it just bleeds for seconds and seconds. 

I think you mean something else by intro than I do. The "Einleitung" of this work is the whole first minute and a half until the final climactic chord with the held out organ afterwards. I wasn't particularly paying attentionto how long the initial rumble is being held out. I was talking more about the pace of the actual trumpet solo and the following chords. Those are rather brief and perfunctory in the first clip.

Also, the fact that the organ is so miserable is what made me think of the Sinopoli recording. The organ in that recording was added by DG after the production because the NYPO only had a crappy organ imitation at that time.  It was also recorded in Avery Fisher Hall where the acoustics were notorious for unbalanced sound. 

So are you saying this sounds like Sinopoli to you? I don't have his recording, but I would have expected better control of dynamics and better ensemble from him.

However, I'm just an amateur -- not really an expert on this and you actually know what you are talking about, so I suspect you've probably nailed it.  (sigh)  Another factor was the rough play, also a characteristic of the NYPO when they don't care for what the conductor is doing. 

Don't be so humble. I could be completely off. M has confused me once before with a very unidiomatic performance of Ravel that completely threw me off. The first clip is very difficult to place for me.

[MishaK]

O Mensch, precisely the points you mention led me to believe we're dealing with the Concertgebouw Orchestra. Being: some "old fashioned" characteristics of the string playing (thought HvK ironed those out with the BPO?), the prominent woodwinds - and I would add: the dark "mahogany" sound colour, the perfect blending of strings and woodwinds, and the chamber music-like character. Also a moderate quick pace fits in - things are generally not dragged in the Concertgebouw.
I would be surprised if it was Solti. Like you said: it has a no-nonsensical quality, something I wouldn't associate with Solti. And it's not bold enough for Solti IMO.

I thought very briefly too that this could be Concertgebouw, but Peter Masseurs has an entirely different trumpet sound and the acoustics aren't right. There is none of the reverb you normally get from that hall. It should have been very noticeable at the abrupt ending of the big organ chord at the end of the Einleitung. The Concertgebouw also has a tad more transparency than the BPO, which is more blended. Karajan is old history. You have to forget that sound completely when listening to today's BPO. The BPO under Abbado developed this chamber like intimacy which I am hearing here. Solti was rather high octane in certain repertoire, but he could be sedate and boring in other (Schubert, e.g.). Whatever you want to say about Solti, he was one darn fine Straussian, as his opera cycle with the VPO attests. He rather knew what he was doing with Strauss. He also developed far more of a sense of color and gave much more rounded performances later in his life compared to his early days. This BPO appearance would have been very late in his life, so it would fit the profile. I am far less certain of my guesses for the other clips, but I'd be astounded if this isn't BPO/Solti.

[Bunny]

I think you mean something else by intro than I do. The "Einleitung" of this work is the whole first minute and a half until the final climactic chord with the held out organ afterwards. I wasn't particularly paying attentionto how long the initial rumble is being held out. I was talking more about the pace of the actual trumpet solo and the following chords. Those are rather brief and perfunctory in the first clip.

So are you saying this sounds like Sinopoli to you? I don't have his recording, but I would have expected better control of dynamics and better ensemble from him.

Don't be so humble. I could be completely off. M has confused me once before with a very unidiomatic performance of Ravel that completely threw me off. The first clip is very difficult to place for me.

Thanks for the kind words, but the more I think about it the more confused I am getting.  (I wish there were an emoticon with crossed eyes!)

I edited my post to reflect the thoughts that occured to me while I was away from the computer.  I see some similarities between the first two clips, and am tempted to speculate that these are all clips of the same orchestra under different conductors and with different recording venues over a period of time.  Except -- the orchestra in each clip sounds so different.  If only orchestras maintained the same sound signature over time, but they don't.  The BP sounds completely different now than it did under Karajan and Böhm, and the NYPO sounds so different now than under Bernstein.  the Philadelphia has maintained their silky string sound, but everything else seems different since Ormandy left. So, I have difficulties just going by the orchestra sound.  I do know that whatever the first one is, it's not Zinman and Tonhalle.  All of their recordings have such great sound quality and the orchestra plays very well with a wonderful quality of ensemble -- whether you like Zinman's interpretations or not.  Just on sound alone, I suspect the first clip is pretty old.  Older than the 1980s at least.

[Sean]

Hi there M, you're still out there then- somehow so am I on and off, trying to stay off but noticed your interesting thread and had to have a go. My initial thoughts on this powerhouse of a strange and inventive score-

I got to know it from the Mehta/ LAPO (not NYPO) on LP, coupled then with Marche slave and Bolero), the one with the outrageously yet entirely convincing slow opening tempo, a sectional approach underlining the strangeness and compulsion, emphasized as ever by the detailed Decca recording: none of the clips are as slow as this. I've also heard the superb Karajan and its near equal possibly inspired by it, the Haitink, one of his finest recordings.

Clip 1- Could well be an American orchestra, the brass with that prairie horn call light and space to it; the ensemble isn't perfect and the dated hard recording adds to a blurred and recessed effect. There's some passion in the strings though and a readiness to linger in Straussian style over the more relaxed ideas: maybe Ozawa/BPO: whatever it is I don't much like it.

Clip 2- A newer recording with better brass and a percussive edge to the timpani: the slight punchiness and dynamic control reminded me of Mackerras (Royal Phil) and his Janacek, along with an Australian/ English timidity in the section after the opening, becoming so slow the momentum is lost and gaining an uncertain and strained air.

Clip 3- Muscular, powerful and a class apart, I'd be surprised if this isn't Karajan/ BPO: another modern recording but with especially rich and blended digital sound, a hazy Germanic inwardness in the slow music and imposing low strings; there's a stature and magnificently measured grip over the whole canvass that few others find, and was the only one I could be bothered to hear all the way through.

[M forever]

Thanks for the kind words, but the more I think about it the more confused I am getting.  (I wish there were an emoticon with crossed eyes!)

See, that is the "problem". You assume a lot of things, instead of just listening and then sharing your views.

Remember, you are not playing "against" O Mensch or anyone else here. There are no winners or losers here. There is no need to declare yourself a loser like here:

However, I'm just an amateur -- not really an expert on this and you actually know what you are talking about, so I suspect you've probably nailed it.  (sigh)

As he says himself:

I could be completely off. M has confused me once before with a very unidiomatic performance of Ravel that completely threw me off.

And not just that one. But I didn't confuse O Mensch - he confused himself. Which is OK, we all do sometimes. Or actually, a lot of the time.

So Bunny, just post what *you* think and don't worry if it's "right" or "wrong". Again, you are not playing "against" anyone here.

I know O Mensch thinks he plays against *me*, but that's not the case either.

[Sean]

O Mensch, I must take issue with the Solti opera cycle (Salome to Die Frau plus Arabella)- he presses onwardly as in his worst Wagner, bringing out a truly manic array of colour and impulse, and entirely missing the music's inner peace and refinement. I've recently been listening to his Rosenkavalier & Arabella and they're hard work, when they should be indulgent, happy and luxurious. He needed to calm down sometimes (I bought his Salome & Elekra).

M, two Strauss threads of mine recently (both no replies)-

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1412.0.html
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1416.0.html

I'll be at the Strauss conference in Oxford on Friday: a long way from you but with a few US scholars there...

[M forever]

Please, no chitchat here about conductors we don't even know yet if they are subject of this thread, and pieces which most definitely aren't. Let's stick to the Mystery Orchestra reviews.

[M forever]

The first clip is very difficult to place for me.

Not just for you. It seems that basically everyone is mystified and confused by the first clip.

There is also a major contradiction there because Bunny thinks what she perceives as its deficiencies in sound, organ, and ensemble could point to the NYP while you and Sarge and somebody else, IIRC, think Bonus 1 (the second clip) could be the NYP, for exactly opposite reasons, namely big sound and very confident playing.

There is definitely potential for discussion there.


Since this round is really interesting with so many stimulating posts, I prepared another 3 (!) bonus clips. So we will have 6 clips, the original Mystery Orchestra 15, and Bonus 1-5. That could easily get confusing. I think in the future, I will just start with 2 or 3 clips and name them alphabetically.

This many clips could easily lead to Zarathustra overdose, but then again, we have so many fanatic collectors here who have 30 recordings of the same piece and compare them against each other, so I will just go ahead and post the links to the additional bonus clips. And then everybody can decide whether they want to attack them, too, or not.

However, at this point I will actually drop a hint!

Of the total of the 6 clips, 2 are actually with the same orchestra, and one conductor also appears twice. That doesn't mean it has to be the same conductor/orchestra combination in two different recordings.

So, here are the new bonus clips. I may reveal the first 3 while the discussion of the last 3 is still going on, that depends on how it goes.

MO15 bonus 3
http://preview.tinyurl.com/37egbn


MO15 bonus 4
http://preview.tinyurl.com/2my7dt


MO15 bonus 5
http://preview.tinyurl.com/2oxstn



For your convenience, here are the first 3 links once more:


Mystery Orchestra 15
http://preview.tinyurl.com/yqw9ex


MO15 bonus 1
http://preview.tinyurl.com/3xpujt


MO15 bonus 2
http://preview.tinyurl.com/33aqt3

[Sean]

By the way I've heard Mehta's Rite, an appropriately heated yet collected Indian perspective.

[MishaK]

And not just that one. But I didn't confuse O Mensch - he confused himself. Which is OK, we all do sometimes. Or actually, a lot of the time.

No, just that one. Seeing that I had nailed Leipzig/Blomstedt last time correctly and guessed correctly on IPO.

I know O Mensch thinks he plays against *me*, but that's not the case either.

I am not. Follow your own advice here: stop making so many assumptions. You don't know what I think. I am not playing against you. That would make no sense at all. However, it would be interesting to see your comments in a blind listening comparison. I would suggest in a variation of established procedure from RMCR that whoever gets closest to the correct answer should post the next MO clips, so that it's not just you all the time and so that we get to hear some of your input, free of prior knowledge of the clip.

[M forever]

Jeff identified the Gewandhausorchester, you just seconded him. Please don't get started about the Israel thing again, you guessed wildly but based on wrong assumptions, then backpedalled off into a rather different direction. And then totally freaked out at me when I pointed out that some of your technical criticism wasn't that accurate. Which Jeff also confirmed.

You *do* really seem to think this is a competition or a test in which I test people, and you don't seem to be able to handle it when I contradict what you say. There is no reason for you to be that self-conscious and thin-skinned because a lot of the comments you make are very good, and I usually acknowledge that.

I did take part in some of the blind listening tests hosted by others in the wake of MO, although only for a short time unfortunatley, and I nailed several of them down to the spot immediately.

Anyone can start their own Mystery thread anytime. It's not that the "winner" or "close winner" gets to "test everybody else. You don't seem to understand what I am trying to do here, providing an interesting and often surprising discussion environment as a change from all the same over-and-over top this and top that threads in which we get treated to the same biased nonsense over and over.

It does take quite a bit of work to select, pepare, upload the files and post all that stuff. Please respect that. If you have a problem with my threads, please do not take part in them.

I want to keep this in a light and relaxed athmosphere. Go on contributing detailed observations like you did, if you want, or leave the discussion, if you don't want.

[Que]

Jeff identified the Gewandhausorchester, you just seconded him. Please don't get started about the Israel thing again, you guessed wildly but based on wrong assumptions, then backpedalled off into a rather different direction. And then totally freaked out at me when I pointed out that some of your technical criticism wasn't that accurate. Which Jeff also confirmed.

Don't know what this was all about, but could we leave this at rmcr, please?
Indulge me.

Q

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Regarding the first clip:

Seems to me to be either the VPO or the BPO. It's the warmth, grandeur, and strength of the strings that point to central European. As to conductors, well, haven't a clue. Maybe the VPO with Karajan or the BPO sans Karajan.

Second clip:

Sounds American to me. Tutties are more impactful with a bit of an inflated profile compared to the first clip. Sound quality seems to indicate either Avery Fisher Hall or maybe someting of 60's vintage. I'd guess NYP. Conductor...?


Third clip:

Really unable to determine here. Measured it isn't. A bit quick. Can't imagine who'd take this piece at such a clip. Solti is propulsive but seldom zippy. Maybe an Italian orchestra? 0:)

[M forever]

Don't know what this was all about, but could we leave this at rmcr, please?

That's basically what I mean, too. Let's just continue on with this discussion here. Nobody gets forced to participate. Anybody can start their own listening threads.

Regarding the first clip:

Seems to me to be either the VPO or the BPO. It's the warmth, grandeur, and strength of the strings that point to central European. As to conductors, well, haven't a clue. Maybe the VPO with Karajan or the BPO sans Karajan.

Looks like you are in the minority here with that view. Most seem to hate that clip and find the orchestral playing rather bad. I think it's good that you aren't impressed by that and post your own opinion. What I personally think I can't obviously say at this point, it would spoil everything.

[Sean]

Bonus 3 (clip 4)- I suggest an earlier Karajan: it reminds me of 2001 (1969), though not seen that in years. Poorer sound but a patrician, mellow dignity redolent of his Metamorphosen strings. It lacks the last degree of edge and bite though... Perhaps also Tennstedt, but I'm beginning to guess.

[Sean]

Bonus 4 (clip 5)- possibly the Mehta I mentioned?! Sorry, it's been 20 years...

On hearing it all I don't think it's his old LAPO: the opening's slow but it's a little more mellow beyond that.

[Sean]

Bonus 5 (clip 6)- another polished effort from what seems like VPO...

[Mark]

I'm officially retracting my earlier guesses. It's not the VPO. It's not an American orchestra. I don't think it's a Scandinavian band. I'm becoming more confident that it's either a British or a German orchestra. But which, which ...

[Que]

Clip 4 (bonus 3):

To my ears the VPO finally entered the stage - opulent sonorities, very refined strings, highly idiomatic playing. It's conducted by a true Straussian - possibly HvK? My favourite with clip 3.


Clip 5 (bonus 4):
This sound is less opulent, and has a kind of soberness. Ditto for the conducting. Munich? Staatskapelle Dresden? No clue about the conductor.

Clip 6 (bonus 5):
This one comes on too strong, makes a good impression at first but then it falls apart. Longer musical lines are not sustained, tension is not kept. Conducting seems erratic. Big, solid, strong sound. Is this the BPO?

Q